Building a Server?

[iain187]

Well everyone has to start somewhere.

I would certainly look at going with something like a Dell so you get a warranty etc and if something major does go crazy, then you can call them in.

There is a lot of irrelevant info in this thread so I looked at your requirements again - file/print & maybe an 'application' - I would look at the system requirements of whatever applications you are considering and workout how much horsepower your server needs from there.


One thing you haven't really mentioned is a proper backup solution - something you probably want to consider (RAID is redundancy imo not a backup!) I used to work for a small company who used to have external hard drives and just rotated each day (we installed symantec backup exec if I recall correctly) but if you are just starting up maybe Small Business Server has a backup facility (can't even remember if it does or if it's any good!!)



I would just keep it really simple to get started!

 

[Chapster5]

He has no clue on computers, so he is putting it to me to sort his systems out mate. I just assumed as a small company which has the big potential of expanding at a rapid rate to put it all on a small network for now then expand it as we go along.

With me doing it from scratch I would know the network inside out so expansion, problems, and all that wouldn't be a problem for me (I hope) and should be a straight forward job of completing the task weather it be expansion or problem finding.

Nick

 

[Chapster5]

Well everyone has to start somewhere.

I would certainly look at going with something like a Dell so you get a warranty etc and if something major does go crazy, then you can call them in.

There is a lot of irrelevant info in this thread so I looked at your requirements again - file/print & maybe an 'application' - I would look at the system requirements of whatever applications you are considering and workout how much horsepower your server needs from there.


One thing you haven't really mentioned is a proper backup solution - something you probably want to consider (RAID is redundancy imo not a backup!) I used to work for a small company who used to have external hard drives and just rotated each day (we installed symantec backup exec if I recall correctly) but if you are just starting up maybe Small Business Server has a backup facility (can't even remember if it does or if it's any good!!)



I would just keep it really simple to get started!

Cheers mate,

I think I remember reading it does have a backup feature to Server, would I just plug the external HDD's in to the USB of the server then map it as a network drive? for storage. Then have another one for daily backups?

Nick

 

[iain187]

you dont need to map a USB external disk as a network drive it will just get it's own letter.

If you mean you are putting your company data on 1 external disk and sharing that - why not share internal storage folders? It'll be quicker for users.

it depends on how far back the boss wants his backups to go - if he is happy with a working week of backups (for example...) then buy 5 external hard drives, label them up mon-fri and do a full backup each day (a new server probably will be able to backup completley over night as it wont have masses of data on)

 

[The Fatty]

Incorrect, layer 2 switches used on the access layer should have security on them, you are thinking about IDS or something like i believe. I agree clan are not required, i was just explaining some features of switches.

Id love you to show me a switch that has the ability to read whats in a packet and perform packet filtering! This is layer 3 stuff not layer 2 stuff. The only thing you can do with a switch is simple things like MAC filtering. Also i am not aware of an "access" layer, maybe its changed sinse I did my degree but I thought it was:

Please - Physical (hubs, cables etc)
Dont - Data Link - (switches etc)
Not - Network - (routers etc also the first layer where IP can be used)
Throw - Transport
Sausage - Session
Pizza - Presentation
Away - Application

Layers 1 and 2 can alony see and use the MAC address! the only security you are going to address here is the ability to black unwanted MAC addresses! Pointless in a small business setup.

(this is fun, havent had a banter like this since uni!)

 

[Chapster5]

Ahh didnt think about multiple external hard drives... Very good idea. Im sure he would be fine to work on weekly backups as the system would change daily. The software which he will be using I think runs off the server so clients, purchases, invoices will be a daily thing.

Nick

 

[The Fatty]

One thing you haven't really mentioned is a proper backup solution - something you probably want to consider (RAID is redundancy imo not a backup!) I used to work for a small company who used to have external hard drives and just rotated each day (we installed symantec backup exec if I recall correctly) but if you are just starting up maybe Small Business Server has a backup facility (can't even remember if it does or if it's any good!!)



I would just keep it really simple to get started!

+1 on this; I normally setup my clients with a bit of free software called fBackup. they have 6 hard drives, one for each day of the working week + 1 for a monthly backup. Nice and simple and is suitable for most people. However if you want versioning, then you will need some paid software. However all of my clients have never wanted this feature.

 

[Chapster5]

+1 on this; I normally setup my clients with a bit of free software called fBackup. they have 6 hard drives, one for each day of the working week + 1 for a monthly backup. Nice and simple and is suitable for most people. However if you want versioning, then you will need some paid software. However all of my clients have never wanted this feature.

fBackup looks good mate, seems to do what I have in mind. Think I will go for that.


Now how about encryption and security what would be best to go for? Is there any specific server requirements to security or can any old network security packaged such as Norton (although I dont like it) or other...

Nick

 

[@Spoonie]

Now how about encryption and security what would be best to go for? Is there any specific server requirements to security or can any old network security packaged such as Norton (although I dont like it) or other...

Nick

What exactly are you looking to secure? Have you now decided on what the servers purpose will be and what O/S?

 

[Chapster5]

Server by the looks of things will be A file server with printer sharing by the looks of things. Possible application hosting that RDP Fatty mentioned. I will be going with Server 2008 looks like it has some nice features and an easy interface to get jobs done.

Nick

 

[The Fatty]

I wouldnt touch Norton!!! Unless you want your server to act like a P100! For anit-malware I use "avast!", imo its the best out there at the moment. you should be able to setup a firewall in the ADSL router so no need for another on the server (besides the windows firewall).

 

[sbridgey]

Id love you to show me a switch that has the ability to read whats in a packet and perform packet filtering! This is layer 3 stuff not layer 2 stuff. The only thing you can do with a switch is simple things like MAC filtering. Also i am not aware of an "access" layer, maybe its changed sinse I did my degree but I thought it was:

Please - Physical (hubs, cables etc)
Dont - Data Link - (switches etc)
Not - Network - (routers etc also the first layer where IP can be used)
Throw - Transport
Sausage - Session
Pizza - Presentation
Away - Application

Layers 1 and 2 can alony see and use the MAC address! the only security you are going to address here is the ability to black unwanted MAC addresses! Pointless in a small business setup.

(this is fun, havent had a banter like this since uni!)

oh dear...

Where did i say the switch was to do packet filtering?

The access layer is below the distribution layer which is below the core layer in network design. Many networks don't bother with the distribution layer though.

Being able to detect a MAC address that is not supposed to be there will allow a switch to disable the port, so for example a employee decides he wants to plug his virus infected laptop in using the PC's ethernet cable the incorrect MAC will immediately be spotted and the port can be shut down stopping a virus from spreading onto the network and causing all kinds of havoc.

 

[Chapster5]

I wouldnt touch Norton!!! Unless you want your server to act like a P100! For anit-malware I use "avast!", imo its the best out there at the moment. you should be able to setup a firewall in the ADSL router so no need for another on the server (besides the windows firewall).

Yeh I hate norton personally, I use AVG. I have used Avast in the past also, also used ZoneAlarm but that blocks EVERYTHING lol it even blocked its own update software -.-'

So out of AVG and Avast? What to recommend I want an anti-virus, malware, spyware and all that too, to save from any form of corruption.

Nick

 

[The Fatty]

ok so your not even talkign about a reconised model?! The cisco hierarchical internetworking model is not a full and accepted model!!!! Talk ISO!!

And yes, you have just confirmed that the only thing a switch can do is MAC filtereing! Thats not even 5% of security within a network! Also pointless as MAC addresses can be so easily changed/spoofed these days!!

and I forgot to mention that your talking about managed switches, not a standard unmanaged switch which is what he needs imo!

 

[The Fatty]

Yeh I hate norton personally, I use AVG. I have used Avast in the past also, also used ZoneAlarm but that blocks EVERYTHING lol it even blocked its own update software -.-'

So out of AVG and Avast? What to recommend I want an anti-virus, malware, spyware and all that too, to save from any form of corruption.

Nick

I would use avast as stated before. However that has nothing to do with stopping corruption! Thats what RAID is for...

 

[@Spoonie]

Server by the looks of things will be A file server with printer sharing by the looks of things. Possible application hosting that RDP Fatty mentioned. I will be going with Server 2008 looks like it has some nice features and an easy interface to get jobs done.

Nick

The RDP stuff he mentioned was client side (He mentioned Win7) along with a VPN so users could connect to their machines remotely. I feel this is a bit excessive for 5 users (along with the suggestion of teaming NICs) as the requirement to work remotely is probably minimal.

As I mentioned earlier, before you start looking at the solution you need to fully understand the problem. I don't think you are yet at that stage. If you come back with a list of what he is after you will get more solid answers IMO.

 

[The Fatty]

The RDP stuff he mentioned was client side (He mentioned Win7) along with a VPN so users could connect to their machines remotely. I feel this is a bit excessive for 5 users (along with the suggestion of teaming NICs) as the requirement to work remotely is probably minimal.

As I mentioned earlier, before you start looking at the solution you need to fully understand the problem. I don't think you are yet at that stage. If you come back with a list of what he is after you will get more solid answers IMO.

i also mentioned about running applications on the server using RDP (with multi user CALS)... Although this seem pointless to me unless you have a special bit of software you need to use at a central point that dosnt use a network accessable database? Also if he has WS2008, then he can setup a RAS server and terminate multiple VPN connections at the server (no need for more hardware).

 

[Chapster5]

I would use avast as stated before. However that has nothing to do with stopping corruption! Thats what RAID is for...

Right so would I be best to use RAID as well as avast also? I want some good security on the server, as we all probably do lol.

The RDP stuff he mentioned was client side (He mentioned Win7) along with a VPN so users could connect to their machines remotely. I feel this is a bit excessive for 5 users (along with the suggestion of teaming NICs) as the requirement to work remotely is probably minimal.

As I mentioned earlier, before you start looking at the solution you need to fully understand the problem. I don't think you are yet at that stage. If you come back with a list of what he is after you will get more solid answers IMO.

I shall be meeting my friend tonight at 8pm so I shall get a nice list written and put it up then we can start working things out properly. Its nice to know the options available though and what they are

Nick

 

[Chapster5]

i also mentioned about running applications on the server using RDP (with multi user CALS)... Also if he has WS2008, then he can setup a RAS server and terminate multiple VPN connections at the server (no need for more hardware).

Well what im mainly thinking is really...

The software uses Databases to store its information like most softwares, it stores, orders... clients... parts... stock... and so on. Now if it was to be installed to a server then the client machines login to the software on that server so they all are constantly up to date with what changes in the database like new orders and stuff. Or would I install it to one of the client machines and make the other client machine connect to the main one to login? If any of that makes sense?

Nick

 

[The Fatty]

no no no no no!!

 

[Chapster5]

To which bit... lol

 

[The Fatty]

Ok it sound like you have an ERP system going in place. That ERP system will have a database which can be installed on the server; this might be a file based database system (like access or paradox) or a server based database system (like MSSQL). Either way, the database gets installed on the server, and the client computers connect to the database on the server. The only thing that needs to sit ont he server is the database. Without knowing what ERP system you are going to be using, its impossible to say what database system it is using.

 

[Chapster5]

Its a mySQL system,

The system is

AutoPart by MAM Software

http://www.mamsoft.co.uk/autopart

I didnt think about the database on the server thing, that simplifies things. Just put in the server address and database username and password into the client machine software and it will connect itself right?

Nick

 

[The Fatty]

yep. thats the norm! you dont suppy a username and password though, thats built into the system normally and is hidden. the username and password your users use to log into the system if differnt (thats acutally stored in the db).

 

[@Spoonie]

I would use avast as stated before. However that has nothing to do with stopping corruption! Thats what RAID is for...

RAID does not prevent corruption. Most corruption is at the file system level which RAID has no impact on.

 

[Chapster5]

Awesome,

That's that sorted then RDP wouldnt be needed.

Just a File server and backup server then

Nick

 

[ChrisR]

I did something similar for a family business years ago and ended up with a basic Dell SBS server running exchange (this was the days before google apps ) and file + print services.

Draytek router which was also a VPN endpoint, and just a cheapo (I know, I know) Netgear unmanaged 'bluebox' gigabit switch.

SBS/NTBackup to external disk (although am probably going to move this to a cheap NAS for various reasons).

Has done the job very nicely for the last 7 or so years, the only issue was when the server decided to just die without warning, wouldn't POST or anything.

Luckily for them (and me) they had a better specced box sat around doing nothing from a second office they had opened and then closed a year or so after.

So a quick play with Symantec system recovery and a recovery image was taken and restored in no time at all which made my life a lot easier!

Their IT spend per year is practically zero bar buying that kit in the first place.

 

[The Fatty]

did you check the PSU sounds like one of th elines has gone down if it dosnt even post

 

[Chapster5]

Thank you Chris,

Symatec System back up is a good idea thinking about it, do Norton still do Ghost? Or have times changed and moved?

Nick

 

[The Fatty]

I use clonezilla, its free and does everything ghost does

 

[iain187]

RAID is a redundancy 'feature' if you like.

you have multiple hard disks in your server that can be configured so if 1 drive fails it wont kill your server as you can replace it whilst working off the other drives! It works by spreading your data over multiple drives so if 1 fails you can get your data elsewhere (in very basic terms)

There are many ways to configure it, but it will probably come pre-setup if you buy a server with an OS (even if it doesn't it is a matter of following a wizard)


it is not a backup as if you delete a file you wont be able to get it back! and when someone mentioned it prevented corruption i hope they forgot the end of their sentence 'it prevents corruption...on your disk stopping your server from working'

lol! that was irritating me.

 

[Adam.]

Lol @ some of the stuff in here.

 

[The Fatty]

RAID does not prevent corruption. Most corruption is at the file system level which RAID has no impact on.

quite correct, if your file gets curroupted at a file system level then it will be corrupted accross the whole array. It stops corruption from being a problem at a hardware level if a disk fails.

I dont think anyone said RAID was a backup method :S

 

[Chapster5]

So RAID Essential at this level of networking?

Nick

 

[The Fatty]

Yes if you want to minimise server downtime due to a fail HDD. All servers should have some config of raid. It has nothing to do with networking, it allows you to recover from a HDD failuer so you dont loose your data.

 

[Nickson]

RAID is a redundancy 'feature' if you like.

you have multiple hard disks in your server that can be configured so if 1 drive fails it wont kill your server as you can replace it whilst working off the other drives! It works by spreading your data over multiple drives so if 1 fails you can get your data elsewhere (in very basic terms)

There are many ways to configure it, but it will probably come pre-setup if you buy a server with an OS (even if it doesn't it is a matter of following a wizard)


it is not a backup as if you delete a file you wont be able to get it back! and when someone mentioned it prevented corruption i hope they forgot the end of their sentence 'it prevents corruption...on your disk stopping your server from working'

lol! that was irritating me.

You know there are different types of RAID array..... Right?

Lol @ some of the stuff in here.

This.

 

[Chapster5]

Recommendations of RAID if you please then

Nick

 

[The Fatty]

You know there are different types of RAID array..... Right?

I think he does as he put "There are many ways to configure it", I am a RAID10 man myself, what do other prefer? 5 or 10?

 

[The Fatty]

We should also point out that RAID also adds other benifits such as increased data access speed due to multiple spindles...

 

[iain187]

only downside to raid is if you can afford it or not I guess. go for it if the boss will sign the cheque

You know there are different types of RAID array..... Right?

'in very basic terms'

the guy is just trying to build a pretty basic server for a handful of people, and is getting a torrent of irrelevant info!!