Cat Camshafts

[portal172]

Hi there,

Can someone please explain to me the differences, in terms of performance and day to day use of these cams? Which would be most suited for road/track use? Which would you recommend? What would idle be like? Wanna get some later on this year when I renew my belts, and was just trying to work out which. Which would give me the most even spread of torque and power?

Cheers.

 

[avstar1]

I cannot answer your questions mate but I'm sure that somebody will be on in a moment to help you.

I have the 5502428 cams which works on standard oe ecu. I believe the others will require a standalone ecu cos they create idle issues or are too wild for the oe ecu to cope with.

someone like benr is best to answer your q's

 

[portal172]

Cheers, I could have PM'd ben, but I think there is a few others who might want to know.

How do you find the cams? Did you get your ecu remapped?

 

[MarkM]

I think I have the milder ones on mine.

Heres a power graph.
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=210780

They are very useable on the road and produce good low down torque. The idle is set a bit higher on my car about 1100rpm I think. The more wild you go the worse the idle and low down torque becomes but obviously better power at higher revs.

 

[jph172]

I recently had the 421,s put in my car-set up incorrectly ruined my car.
According to other companies that fit them the 428,s are the ONLY cams that will run on a standard ecu, mine however with the mapping has produces serious side affects and id seriously research them before getting them fitted.
GDI use them and have made fantastic results.

 

[portal172]

thanks guys! bumpage.

 

[BenR]

2428 is the only profile to use out of the catalogue on stock type management.

The stock FBW ECU algorhithms have a real problems dealing with any overlap values as it causes manifold vacuum fluctuations which confuse the ecu as its designed to work with negative overlap values in its dephased state. Unsteady manifold vacuum just leads the ecu to close the throttle and stall the engine.

Even then the 2428's need to be timed in VERY precisely as they are right on the edge.

 

[portal172]

Thanks Ben! Now to figure out a plan to sneak out 600 pounds without the mrs knowing.

 

[BenR]

I'm sure she'll notice if you loose that much weight.

 

[portal172]

touche!

 

[sthom]

The 5502420 are the ones that are made according to the group N homologation sheet so they should work perfectly even without an ECU reprogramme if,according to what you say,the 2428 work OK with oe ECU.
The 2428 has exactly the same exhaust cam but slightly wilder inlet cam.

I ordered the 2420's for a friend of mine who has a RS 172 phase I and i hope that combined with a Renault Sport ECU reflash it will work pretty nice and produce about 185bhp.

Power figures also depend from the exhaust diameter that you are going to use.




MarkM you have a 182 running on 2428's and oe ECU and induction?

 

[MarkM]

MarkM you have a 182 running on 2428's and oe ECU and induction?

182
OMEX ecu
standard inlet
2.5" exhaust

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Hello,

may I ask a question regarding the valve lift at TDC?

The first three profiles have a smal valve lift in TDC for the inlet compared to the high lift values for the outlet. Peak angle is 124° for the inlet.
The second block (22+23) show the reverse bigger vlave lift at TDC fot the inlet and the Peak angle for the inlet is 104°.

Can somebody explain to me what the impact on power and torque is?

I use the 5502704 in my K4M engine, power and torque are very satisfinging, but idle ist quite stable even at 1200rpm....

thanks.

 

[BenR]

The first 3 cams are listed with their grind data including the 16 deg of vvt r****d, so the inlet becomes 108 deg peak angle when advanced. The lobes, like stock cams, are staggered by 4 degrees in their opening.

The latter cams are designed for use in higher spec racing engines where you dont really bother with VVT, so the timing specs are given without the vvt r****d info.

 

[sthom]

MarkM you have a 182 running on 2428's and oe ECU and induction?

182
OMEX ecu
standard inlet
2.5" exhaust

So i suppose that you had the same set up during the RR you mentioned above... Great job!

 

[MarkM]

182
OMEX ecu
standard inlet
2.5" exhaust

So i suppose that you had the same set up during the RR you mentioned above... Great job!

Yes.

RR supposedly reads 174bhp(ish) for standard 182's so a 20bhp gain.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

The first 3 cams are listed with their grind data including the 16 deg of vvt r****d, so the inlet becomes 108 deg peak angle when advanced. The lobes, like stock cams, are staggered by 4 degrees in their opening.

The latter cams are designed for use in higher spec racing engines where you dont really bother with VVT, so the timing specs are given without the vvt r****d info.

Hi Ben,

thanks for your information.
What is the real purpose of the vvt in the RS? Is it for more torque at low rpm and more power at high revs, or simply to keep the idling rpm and emissions quite low?
Some times i think about installing the cylinder head with the oil duct for the vvt of the K4M-760 engine, get another inletcam from catcams and mount the cam phaser of the RS to bring my idling to a law conform value...

 

[sthom]

Hello,

may I ask a question regarding the valve lift at TDC?

The first three profiles have a smal valve lift in TDC for the inlet compared to the high lift values for the outlet. Peak angle is 124° for the inlet.
The second block (22+23) show the reverse bigger vlave lift at TDC fot the inlet and the Peak angle for the inlet is 104°.

Can somebody explain to me what the impact on power and torque is?

I use the 5502704 in my K4M engine, power and torque are very satisfinging, but idle ist quite stable even at 1200rpm....

thanks.

I got exactly the same engine K4M.
The idle will never be stable at all because of much bigger overlap of the cams.
The bigger the lift at TDC,the greater the overlap is.:dapprove:
The only way to make it better is to use high compression pistons which is rather expensive thing to do.





The cheaper solution to your problem will be another set of cams(Schrick probably) which work perfectly with the factory compression ratio.
From K4M they produce aprox. +25 bhp at 6000 if combined with an exhaust manifold,sports cat 200cpsi and an induction kit.
The good thing is that although they make the peak somewhere around 6000 rpm,they don't loose over 6-8 bhp even at 7000.

 

[sthom]

Hi Ben,

thanks for your information.
What is the real purpose of the vvt in the RS? Is it for more torque at low rpm and more power at high revs, or simply to keep the idling rpm and emissions quite low?
Some times i think about installing the cylinder head with the oil duct for the vvt of the K4M-760 engine, get another inletcam from catcams and mount the cam phaser of the RS to bring my idling to a law conform value...

Too much money and a lot of time loss...:dapprove:
Better get an RS instead.

 

[sthom]

So i suppose that you had the same set up during the RR you mentioned above... Great job!

Yes.

RR supposedly reads 174bhp(ish) for standard 182's so a 20bhp gain.

When i will finish with my friend's 172,i will try to upload a RR.
I hope that it will keep it's power till 7400 and make the peak somewhere around 6800-7000.

The only things that it has right now is air filter in standard airbox,mapped ECU and 55mm exhaust with sports cat(100cpsi).

 

[jph172]

2428 is the only profile to use out of the catalogue on stock type management.

The stock FBW ECU algorhithms have a real problems dealing with any overlap values as it causes manifold vacuum fluctuations which confuse the ecu as its designed to work with negative overlap values in its dephased state. Unsteady manifold vacuum just leads the ecu to close the throttle and stall the engine.

Even then the 2428's need to be timed in VERY precisely as they are right on the edge.

Thanks Ben, This explains alot in detail which sheds some light to why my car runs so poorly.
Mine were the 421,s which according to the tuning company they would run fine as they had the power to minipulate the standard ecu to run these cams.
Rolling road reports showed the cam timing was way out and on further examination showing the exhaust cam was retarded but about 6degrees.
According to Q.E.P the company who distributes these in the UK they SHOULD be set up using the standard renault timing tool.
When i questioned the company they claimed they had their own timing tool made up to fit the cams. From the off the car would stall. After further changes to the Idle the car managed to sit and tick over alone but would still to this day frequently cut-out.
Other side affects would be the car going into limp mode when pushed near to the limiter.

 

[sthom]

This is the old RR with the goodies mentioned above.

http://upload5.postimage.org/123570/photo_hosting.html

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Too much money and a lot of time loss...:dapprove:
Better get an RS instead.

Hi sthom,

my K4M is not installed in a ClioII it is in a ClioI Mk.3...

klick


Yes, I have seen the high compression Pistons at woessner...see page 56...
http://www.enem.com/images/Bilder Wossner/Wossner Katalog.pdf

but 12,7:1 is a little much I think...but availible with 80,5mm bore...

 

[Andy_J]

cool conversion oliver... then again i'm biased! K4M FTW!

 

[sthom]

Oliver you can simply use a thicker head gasket and drop the compression ratio to where you want to.

Awesome Clio man!!!

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Oliver you can simply use a thicker head gasket and drop the compression ratio to where you want to.

Awesome Clio man!!!

I´m not so a big friend of thicker head gaskets....I think for additional costs woessner can also make pistons for different comp. ratios....but I wouldn´t be sure what to take, I think someting between 11:1 and 12:1.....

 

[sthom]

Yeap,i believe that 11:1 is ok than the standard 10:1.

 

[BenR]

Oliver you can simply use a thicker head gasket and drop the compression ratio to where you want to.

Awesome Clio man!!!

I´m not so a big friend of thicker head gaskets....I think for additional costs woessner can also make pistons for different comp. ratios....but I wouldn´t be sure what to take, I think someting between 11:1 and 12:1.....

Just skim the intruder down a tad.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

that´s true...

 

[sthom]

I'm thinking of using the group N set of Cat(5502702) to my K4M...
http://www.catcams.be/800x600/prod01Adata.htm?PN5502702?PN55027xx.js

I hope that they won't need an ECU remap and they will give a small "boost" at high revs...

 

[BenR]

The difference between GrpN and stock is so mild that i'm not sure i would bother with the financial outlay and work.

 

[sthom]

Yes,i know,but the cost is almost the same to remap the factory ECU or use the Cats with the OEM mapping so i think that the Cats will give something more at high revs than a remap...

Certainly the remap will have a much better mid range but it won't be able to "upgrade" high revs(5500+).
Reving high needs wilder cams...

Am i right?:dapprove:

 

[BenR]

A deviance of 3 degrees isnt going to do jack in the grand scheme considering you have an appaling inlet manfiold and a cylinder head that needs considerable attention to detail.

Changing cams on modern engines is always a dissapointment unless the cylinderhead and inlet manifold has an excess of flow required like the honda K20A.

Add the small capacity and your really fishing for percentage points until you fix the main problems with the K4M.

 

[sthom]

I know that i could get much more from a gas flowed head and a remap than simply changing the cams but the problem is that where i come from,no one has a flow bench to do that work properly so instead of spending 400E to someone who will probably do nothing to the cylinder head(or even make it worse),i prefer to spend the money to something else.

I know that this engine has great potential(as far as i know in France they had a Clio cup with 160bhp K4M engines! ) but the problem is how easy can someone get power out of it always concidering having good value for money.:dapprove:

If the required amount to get 135-140bhp from the K4M is almost or over 2500E-3000E,than it is better to sell the car and buy an RS 172.

 

[Andy_J]

140bhp from our measly 1600s would be sweet.. get on the case ben, a good few K4m owners on here.. a bit of business for you to crack into other than RS clios!

 

[Oliver_K4M]

...
I know that this engine has great potential(as far as i know in France they had a Clio cup with 160bhp K4M engines! ) but the problem is how easy can someone get power out of it always concidering having good value for money.:dapprove:
...

It has, look at the Clio 1600 for Rallye....

Some years ago I wrote a e-mail to renault sport and I got an answer...

"Oliver,

AS enhenced the Renault K4M engine is, to tune it from 110 HP to 220 HP is a big challenge !!

The FIA regulation on the S1600 categorie concerning the engine relies on the following statements:

- single throttle box with a max diameter of 60 mm
- max engine revs : 9000 RPM
- to keep the original valves diameter
- no modification on the oil and water pump
- Compression ratio : The maximum compression ratio is 13/1.
- Valve timing and valve lift : Variable systems are prohibited.
- Variable geometry intake and exhaust manifolds are prohibited
- titanium and magnesium are prohibited.
- The head intake and exhaust holes can be increased in dimension by only 4%

What we have done on the engine:

- The K4M bloc has not been modified (nor bore and stroke)
- the crankshaft is extracted from the Renault K9K standard engine !!!
- the crankshaft bearings are specific for heavy duty
- the conrods are specific (machined from solid with Renault K9K bearings)
- the pistons (specific shape) are aluminium forged
- Intake and exhaust ducts of the cylinder head have been polished to improve their permeability.
- Of course the camshafts are specific (machined from solid for the rigidity), also the valves and springs.
- Because of the high engine max rev, we have redesign the rockers and hydraulic bumps but keeping the same concept (rocker with bearing and spherical contact between the rocker and the bump; the hydraulic height adjustment of the rocker bump has been cancelled to prevent the bump from pumping up).
- We have particularly paid attention to the acoustic adjustement between the air intake manifold and the exhaust line in order to optimise the compromise of the torque diagram (for tarmac and gravel use)
- the flywheel (steel machined from solid) has been lightened to reduce inertia.
- The ECU (specific to racing) is from Magneti marelli (MF4M)

Because of the modern design of the Renault K4M engine, we are confident in having one of the very best S1600 engine today !!

Sorry, but we don't have any picture of the engine at the moment.
Maybe in a few days.

Best regards,

Jean-Yves HEITZ
Clio Kit Car S1600 project leader.
Renault Sport Technologies."

http://www.renault-sport.com/fr/Images/fiche_technique_clio_super_1600_tcm2-3701.pdf

 

[sthom]

Oliver you 're killing me man...

Did you also used to work for Renault Sport and you are hiding from us?:rasp:

 

[BenR]

The S1600 is a pretty well known spec and it is not overly hard to work within the restraints of the FIA regulations, the cars have a max build cost of US$100,000 for everything.

We have a K4M powered car comming in in the second week next month to try out a few new items, so it should be pretty exciting for you K4M owners once its done......its not some boring air filter and ex jobbie.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Oliver you 're killing me man...

Did you also used to work for Renault Sport and you are hiding from us?:rasp:

No I don´t, I work in automotive area but not motor-sports or something like this.

Check out this link:

http://shop-competition.renault-sport.com/

and then stroll through the catalogue....

@BenR

I´m looking forward to it!

 

[Andy_J]

The S1600 is a pretty well known spec and it is not overly hard to work within the restraints of the FIA regulations, the cars have a max build cost of US$100,000 for everything.

We have a K4M powered car comming in in the second week next month to try out a few new items, so it should be pretty exciting for you K4M owners once its done......its not some boring air filter and ex jobbie.

let me know when it's time to crack the piggy bank open!