CatCams 421 and standard ECU will it run for 100miles ?

[Toxic#66]

come one guys dont take this personal !
I'm not throwing anything back in Your faces. Nor do I think You take me for a fool. I'm sorry if I was rude
I know You want good, but I've already bought those cams.
I agree they are not the best choice, now I know that too,
but I'll try to make best of them. Maby something special will com out of it, who knows ?

 

[Toxic#66]

Now back to the matter at hand....

This is my first rr test, car had only decat and air filter

To explain
P-Mot power on flywheel (second RED)
P-koła power on wheels (BLUE)
P-straty power losses (GREEN)

M-Norm torque (RED)


Now with all those things I mention erlier installed, how do You think
power output will change ? Will that 0-5000rpm gap be much weeker than what the car already produce ? What kind of losses are we talking about ? 5% or maybe 30%

 

[d4ve86]

who cares about BHP figures, its about driveability, i wouldnt get cams fitted and rush to the nearest rolling road to see what my new power output was.

It will come down to who is in the driving seat, why dont you just get the cams fitted, the car mapped and see what happens, whos going to be able to give you a % of loss, from reading every post in the thread you should have ur answer by now

 

[Toxic#66]

It's all just theoretical talk, I know.
But see this, how much useful informations came from a simple question "will they run for a 100miles on standard ECU ?"
I hope questions I raised so far are more creative then" Oh gosh will this muffler give me 5bhp ?"
I know You are strongly against 421 cams, so let us pretend for a moment that CatCams dont fabricate them no more.
Same thing with Standalone ECU, almost all of You said it cant be done without. BenR came up with a solution ! Thats why I hope to run it on remaped ECU
Reading every post is one thing, but every case is different.
From what I see most of You drive MK2 which I think is more unforgiving while tuning.
My goal is to gather as many opinions sa possible before the work starts, so I can pass those informations to people doing the hard work.
At the end I hope we will all enjoy one more nicely modified Clio on this forum, this time from Poland ( and there are very few of them here )

 

[Toxic#66]

Another lame question

This time about air intake.
Do You think standard air box with GREEN filter fitted will be suficient for this kind of setup ? Or should I look around for a BCM CDA system ?

 

[wide]

why don't you just try ringing catcams to see if they will exchange them, whats the worst that can happern they say no & you go back to your original plan but if they will exchange them it will make your life alot easier.

 

[Toxic#66]

Can We please focus on 421 cams ??
Basic math:
if I were to loose 5bhp under 3000rpm and gain 20-30 over 5000rmp with 421
How does it compare to 428 where peek power will be 15-20 at most ?

I want the car to be bloody fast, and I'm willing to make sacrifices.
All I'm asking is to write down Your suggestions on the subject

 

[Steviant]

I hope questions I raised so far are more creative then" Oh gosh will this muffler give me 5bhp ?"

Can We please focus on 421 cams ??
Basic math:
if I were to loose 5bhp under 3000rpm and gain 20-30 over 5000rmp with 421
How does it compare to 428 where peek power will be 15-20 at most ?

I want the car to be bloody fast, and I'm willing to make sacrifices.
All I'm asking is to write down Your suggestions on the subject

Not much more creative than above, no.

If you think you will get 20-30bhp out of cams alone, you are delusional.

HAve you called Catcams yet to see if they will swap them for you?

 

[Johnc172]

Can We please focus on 421 cams ??
Basic math:
if I were to loose 5bhp under 3000rpm and gain 20-30 over 5000rmp with 421
How does it compare to 428 where peek power will be 15-20 at most ?

I want the car to be bloody fast, and I'm willing to make sacrifices.
All I'm asking is to write down Your suggestions on the subject

Right...i've got 428 cats on my cup, with the usual inlet mods, 182 mani etc etc. I've got 204hp torque has been shot up also. I've had it mapped and even the company that mapped it (sanspeed) said the ecu could not handle that much more, if you were to get 421s the car would run terrible and would be very hard to get the car to run up to scratch, you've had soooooo many people telling you it won't work,a nd now you've got another lol!!

If you can swap them for the 428s then i would suggest do that!!

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

The conversation here reminds me of my previous company... Toxic your real name isn't Pawel is it......

 

[Toxic#66]

If you think you will get 20-30bhp out of cams alone, you are delusional.

I have some hopes yes, but as I wrote before I also bought 182mani and RS stamped inlet to help me with that 20-30bhp.
I was asking earlier if the air filter made by GREEN will be suficient ?
If you could shed some light on this matter, instead of asking me to replace the cams, I would appriciate it.

The conversation here reminds me of my previous company... Toxic your real name isn't Pawel is it......

No mate, my name is not Pawel

 

[Toxic#66]

you've had soooooo many people telling you it won't work,a nd now you've got another lol!!

I did the count for You
People against:
sam wrc
The Jesus
D4ve
and You

And for "it can be done":
BenR
mini-valver

Not that many as You can see

 

[Steviant]

Stop being a c0ck, and go fit the fecking cams.

Then come back and tell us how you got on, and if they work, and how much of the 30bhp you achieved.

I'm not against fitting them. I was just trying to be helpful and give you the information that Cat Cams have given to me and numerous other people who have also posted, which is that the 421 profile cams will not work very well, if at all in the clio.


:evil:

 

[Johnc172]

you've had soooooo many people telling you it won't work,a nd now you've got another lol!!

I did the count for You
People against:
sam wrc
The Jesus
D4ve
and You

And for "it can be done":
BenR
mini-valver

Not that many as You can see

Of course it can be done, anything can be done, but it won't work well, unless you have stand alone!

 

[Toxic#66]

Stop being a c0ck, and go fit the fecking cams.

Then come back and tell us how you got on, and if they work, and how much of the 30bhp you achieved.

I'm not against fitting them. I was just trying to be helpful and give you the information that Cat Cams have given to me and numerous other people who have also posted, which is that the 421 profile cams will not work very well, if at all in the clio.


:evil:

I know You ar trying to help, and I dont mean any disrespect.
I spoke to my local CatCams dealer and he says I should be fine,
They are all Street Cams as he says. But never mind that.
I admit You all may be right !!
As for the fact that "it can be done"
Its all down to who will remap the car and how well does He knows his job
But I'm going to stay with 421 cams thats why I might consider going for Stand alone.
What Stand alone Unit should I look for ? From what I see most of you use OMEX, but is there anything else maby less expensive that I can live with ?

 

[homer simpson]

emerald are highly recommended by a auto electrician i know they are supposed to be easier to map to

 

[Toxic#66]

What about this ECU ?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Omex-500-prog...ryZ72205QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I gues it must be one of the older models ? Will it be sufficient ?

 

[ditz]

What about this ECU ?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Omex-500-prog...ryZ72205QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I gues it must be one of the older models ? Will it be sufficient ?

it isn't even powerfull enough to run a modern washing machine let alone a modern engine with cam phasing and what not

 

[reg_the_geza]

What about this ECU ?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Omex-500-prog...ryZ72205QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I gues it must be one of the older models ? Will it be sufficient ?

it isn't even powerfull enough to run a modern washing machine let alone a modern engine with cam phasing and what not

PMSL

if u are going to run standalone then u need to be spending upto 1k alone for the ecu and loom, maybe more depending on what one you go for.
i paid £550 for my kms ecu and wideband lambda for my 106, but i would go for a better ecu for a clio.

 

[Toxic#66]

So is this what I should be looking for ?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OMEX-600-comp...ZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

and a loom

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OMEX-600-ECU-...ZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

 

[en035]

just drop an email to info@fastchip.nl

My 172 is running on Colombo&Bariani cams with factory default ECU. Henk perfectly tailored the map in order to suit the fuel and etc requirements of the car.

I would hesitate investigating money on OMEX like system since you will never get the best out of it. I mean price/gain ratio is very high. If you are after significant performance gains TURBO is the way to go.

 

[cliohybrid]

surely you would have been better spending the money on a standalone rather jumping in the deep end with cams.
If you bought the standalone first you could have worked out a good base map then you know were you are and have the knowledge that everything is running as good as it can get.
running long duration cams on standard ecu is a nono.if you go to wild you can do damage.
You said you want no compromise to perfoprmance which is why you are adament on this cam.but listen carefully.
YOU ARENT GOING TO GET THE BEST OUT OFF THE CAM WITH A STANDARD ECU EVEN RE-MAPPED.YOU ARE COMPROMISING YOURSELF AS SOON AS THOSE CAMS GO IN.
no compromise would be
ITB
bigger injectors
fuel pump
fully worked head
high compression pistons
fully lightened balanced bottom end.
cams.
stand alone
this is for normal aspirated.
i take it as you want a no compromise performance orientated car your also looking at custom gear ratios for your gearbox so that when your engine is built and you get the engine dynoed youd know were peak power is and can keep your revs between that.
i put money on that you never even though of that?

 

[BenR]

jesus, what is this all about?

The guy whats to try some cams that he likes, and thats his choice, he asked if he can technically run them, and yes he can.

There are alot of opinions that are neither here nor there being thrown about, and alot of completely off topic comments. People are picking apart his intentions for no good reason, we all know what he means as english is obviously not his first language.

So, just let him do what he wants to do and see what happens, he has all the info he needs.

 

[Toxic#66]

Thank You BenR, Shame I don't live in UK as You would be the first person I would visit for advice.
I hope it wont be so bad after all I'll keep You up to date with my work

 

[Clioman51]

Some times opinions become clio sport fact on here toxic just take no notice and do what you want after all when your booting your car you dont stay under 3k!

 

[ditz]

from what i understand all these problems you here of the standard ecu not being up to it are only because it calculates engine load from manifold pressure..
if thats the case paul from rs tuning is in the process of trying to get throttle bodies to run on a standard ecu i think i read somewhere, so if theres a way round that im sure you could sort the same problem out to deal with the overlap

 

[Toxic#66]

Some times opinions become clio sport fact on here toxic just take no notice and do what you want after all when your booting your car you dont stay under 3k!

especially on 1/4mile races

As for future mods, anything is possible, I don't want this to be over after cams are in. ITB and hicomp pistons are in line, just not right now, next year maybe. That's why I was hoping to wait with standalone till next year.

 

[cliohybrid]

jesus, what is this all about?

The guy whats to try some cams that he likes, and thats his choice, he asked if he can technically run them, and yes he can.

There are alot of opinions that are neither here nor there being thrown about, and alot of completely off topic comments. People are picking apart his intentions for no good reason, we all know what he means as english is obviously not his first language.

So, just let him do what he wants to do and see what happens, he has all the info he needs.

i agree that you should do what you want but the guys question was will these cams work with a standard ecu and MOST of the replys was no followed by a cam that would work with this ECU.
theres doing something then theres doing something properly and in order.
you wouldnt put a fully worked head on a 1.2 standard engine likewise you wouldnt put ITB on a stock ecu with stock ECU would you?
cmas give a longer duration then standard.
things that have to be aware of that is mainly ECU or more precise injector duration.
if its not then you WILL run lean AND you do run the risk of blowing the engine up.

 

[cliohybrid]

Some times opinions become clio sport fact on here toxic just take no notice and do what you want after all when your booting your car you dont stay under 3k!

especially on 1/4mile races

As for future mods, anything is possible, I don't want this to be over after cams are in. ITB and hicomp pistons are in line, just not right now, next year maybe. That's why I was hopeing to wait with standalone till next year.

hey respect to you anyways and i wish you luck with your project,i wasnt being rude just giving my opinion,i never said it maybe the right one but i think its a common sense one,just be carefull with them cams until you get remap/standalone.

 

[stan*]

What I tend to find running "wild" cams on a single-throttle plenum inlet arrangment is they give a very rough idle due to exhaust reversion at closed throttle and inet "robbing" between the cylinders due to shared volume...this throws the fuelling way out. and this is typically WITHOUT a MAP sensor. You will be running a MAP sensor, so these effects will be exagerated.

As said, increasing the base idle will be necessary (probably expect 1300-1400rpm). I dont think there will be any issues with driving 100miles, save for stalling and "jumpiness" at part throttle.
If theres massive issues which cannot be ironed out via mapping, then you can always swing cam timing to alter lift@tdc/ overlap.

Fitting ITB's and standalone managment is the real solution lol

 

[The Seer]

Have you installed them yet?

The 421 profile catcam doesn't work very well in the clio with standard ecu. If at all.

You need either 420 or 428 profile for best results with a standard ECU.

Second that. Will be taking the 420 route at then end of this month at AngelWorks on recommendation from Ben R. It's a safe bet since they work very I'm told. 421'a aren't really an oprion.

 

[maupineda]

Toxic, I have been following this topic and I support your decision as I am a bit stubborn some times too. However, you have said you want to do some sacrifices. If so this is true, then why not sacrifice a bit more of cash and go for an OMEX ECU or swap your cams at a cost, I bet the dealer may be willing to do so unless you bought them from a particular. This mod seems to be one you should be very happy with, it wont be worthwhile to be disappointed after opening up your engine just to find out it is not what you expected, now in the other hand, you may end up with a good outcome but seems to be too risky and you may end up spending more, even if you have to buy new 428 again now. You know your budget time and money wise, do your sums then decide, if you are up for an experiment then go for it and let us know.

Again, you decide and do what your thought and logic dictate, it will also depend how deep down the route you'll go in modifying your car. Finally, at CATs site these cams are fastroad, wonder then why they won't do well with standard ECU. If this is backed up by Ben who know a thing or two about clios then you may not be wrong at all

 

[stan*]

the map sensor is the main issue, along with reverison.

 

[Toxic#66]

I started the same thread on polish forum, and the discusion there was also very vivid. Few interesting things was mentioned. I also contacted one of leading chiptuning firms in Poland about remap. I should hear from them tomorrow.

And finally.....
this is what BB Performance wrote me:
"We have seen around 210 bhp on the modifications you have listed. You can map the cams on the standard ECU, as you said the idle is slightly lumpy, but that is that same on any ECU as it is due to the camshafts. If you have any problems with Mapping let us know. Regards Andy. Remember an ECU is simply a computer its the programme that determines the running of the vehicle."

To tell You the truth I got those cams from them on ebay, price was good so I decided, no questions asked. I'm still happy I did that, despite all the different opinions. If all turns out right I'll get what I want, and You'll all get Your answer
I hope OMEX will be my last option, since there is so much things yet to be purchased.

 

[BenR]

jesus, what is this all about?

The guy whats to try some cams that he likes, and thats his choice, he asked if he can technically run them, and yes he can.

There are alot of opinions that are neither here nor there being thrown about, and alot of completely off topic comments. People are picking apart his intentions for no good reason, we all know what he means as english is obviously not his first language.

So, just let him do what he wants to do and see what happens, he has all the info he needs.

i agree that you should do what you want but the guys question was will these cams work with a standard ecu and MOST of the replys was no followed by a cam that would work with this ECU.
theres doing something then theres doing something properly and in order.
you wouldnt put a fully worked head on a 1.2 standard engine likewise you wouldnt put ITB on a stock ecu with stock ECU would you?
cmas give a longer duration then standard.
things that have to be aware of that is mainly ECU or more precise injector duration.
if its not then you WILL run lean AND you do run the risk of blowing the engine up.

Talking to the wrong guy lol.

 

[BenR]

I started the same thread on polish forum, and the discusion there was also very vivid. Few interesting things was mentioned. I also contacted one of leading chiptuning firms in Poland about remap. I should hear from them tomorrow.

And finally.....
this is what BB Performance wrote me:
"We have seen around 210 bhp on the modifications you have listed. You can map the cams on the standard ECU, as you said the idle is slightly lumpy, but that is that same on any ECU as it is due to the camshafts. If you have any problems with Mapping let us know. Regards Andy. Remember an ECU is simply a computer its the programme that determines the running of the vehicle."

To tell You the truth I got those cams from them on ebay, price was good so I decided, no questions asked. I'm still happy I did that, despite all the different opinions. If all turns out right I'll get what I want, and You'll all get Your answer
I hope OMEX will be my last option, since there is so much things yet to be purchased.

You will not get close to 210bhp.

And the points people are making are usually based on second hand information. You car WILL run, it WILL idle and it will be fine to drive. The cams are not so wild that the thing will refuse to run in any half decent capacity at all. You will only encounter some slightly irritating idle traits and occasional stalling when coasting, which is easy enough to counter with the methods i have outlined. The stock ECU will be fine to remap to run those cams, and it will run smoothly, the only thing you will suffer is the lopy idle, and you should still be able to maintain a hot idle of 1000rpm.

However the torque curve is another matter, one that is entirely your own decision to run with.

 

[wide]

if you'd have said you got them from ebay in the beginning, instead of making out you got them from catcams people wouldn't have kept telling you to try & get them returned & wouldn't have gotten on your case so much for not listerning!!!

 

[wide]

oh & i still wish you luck m8!

 

[stan*]

Ben, you dont find many idle issues when running a plenum inlet and "wild" cams?
granted the ones mentioned here arent too bad, but theres a distinct issue when running a shared inlet i find.
Its quite impressive to see a once 1400rpm erratic idling engine on a plenum, idle at 900rpm like a kitten when you fit ITB's!!

 

[reg_the_geza]

Ben, you dont find many idle issues when running a plenum inlet and "wild" cams?
granted the ones mentioned here arent too bad, but theres a distinct issue when running a shared inlet i find.
Its quite impressive to see a once 1400rpm erratic idling engine on a plenum, idle at 900rpm like a kitten when you fit ITB's!!

yep, when running long duration cams with a plenum and single tb you will get charge robbing and it will have an erratic idle. thats the joy of fitting itb's, will idle like a kitten lol and will gain loads of midrange. IMO they are worth it just for the noise