Clio 16v / F7P Internal tuning questions

[lofty]

im considering some moderate internal Mods to my F7P lump, consisting of ported inlet and exhaust manifolds, ported head, and fast road cams, im pretty skint so i cant afford the luxary of just send the whole car away to get it all done, so i want to idealy source the parts individualy or strip mine and get them done while the car is off the road, to do this i have a few questions -

1 - are R19 16v and clio 16v head identicle/interchangable?

2 - are the R19 16v and clio 16v Inlet manifolds identical?

3 - how easy is it to remove the head and inlet/exhaust manifolds my self, (i know the head will need re-assembling correctly)

4 - when an engine is old and has covered a fair few miles, how much of the wear is bottom end? i.e if i replace the valves and valve springs etc what else is likley to need doing and how much work/money is it, i.e pistons rings etc

5 - what will i pay for some hot cams, and which ones are good i dont need to drive my car so much anymore so i dont mind losing a bit of the day to day useability of the carn at low revs.

6 - is there other jobs that could be done while the block is largly exposed and the injector rail is off? i was thinking things like cleaning the injectors like Nick did, what cost etc would be involved in these things

7 - what other stuff might i need for it? im thinking after a spell on a rolling road an increas fuel pressure might be needed and im hoping i can simple bung on a boost valve to take care of the additional fueling, (see other post about exhaust)



what im trying to achieve is an ultra effcient F7P engine, that is as good as when it came out of the factory despite the mileage,

and its all got to be done on the tightest of budgets with as much as possible being doen by myself in terms of stripping and assembling, (im hoping BenR might hel;p with the porting etc)

many thanks in advance

lofty

 

[BenR]

no worrie mate, we can spend ages doin each part perfectly. I would replace the guides, big end bearing and rings....cheap, but so important!!!

Also, taking it all out is the easy part, easpecially if your putting new stuff in. An re assembling aint too hard either, just need tools, and not to forget the order in which parts go on..

The cams for the clio are gonna be about 220 quid, and you will loose low rpm torque. But who cares. Timimng the cam is gonna be hard, as setting up using the LCA is different than a single cam engine, so many variables!
lift on overlap, advance/r****d, check the clearance etc etc.

You could just increase the baseline fuel pressure, so more fuel is delivered everywhere. A piggyback ecu is costly, and time consuming.

 

[lofty]

exactly what i wanted to hear,

what am i looking at in parts alone? i know roughly what the head is likley to cost but the lower stuff - guides,rings,big end bearings etc im not sure on cost and difficulty of fitting,

also are the cams worth the cash? i want to get evrything done while its apart and dis-assembled, but there is no real rush to get it done quickly and i should have a good deal of time on my hands as well,

as far as fueling i was thinking the PBV and a Hillpower re mappable chip would be suitable, (or maybe somwhere closer to home, maybe Interpro?)

im hoping if i get everything done properly i should have a nice reliable 150-160 BHP or am i being over optomisitc?

 

[jimbo1]

well the cylinder heads are interchangable. its the manifolds that are slightly different. as for cams, u can buy piper cams 270 fast road for 143quid for performance on the net www.potn.co.uk. the vernier pulleys are about 140quid also. these are exchange cams.

as for bottom end, my engines done 125k miles, and wen the head was off the bores were perfect. no wear at all. u could even see the original honing marks on the bores!! if the engines coming out, the replace the bottom end bearings and seals. u cna buy all these from http://www.bbperformancetuning.co.uk/

 

[lofty]

only other idea i had is running it on twin 45s, i would have to check to see if it can be overlooked at the MOT as i know it wont pass "officialy" but i have heard a rumour that soon there will be a live link to the DVLA so that fiddling and bodging of mixtures to get them to pass and then adjusting them back can no longer be done, also i think i would be lucky to find garage willing to have thier name on the MOT ticket as if i got pulled and the copper was fairly turned on he might be aware of the omissions and spot somthing dodgey going on,

it must be possible because there are loads of old cars running such fueling, i guess there is a cut off date where it the stricter requirments come in,

althought if i every needed to sell it i would have alot of trouble.

lofty

 

[Anders]

Why not just spend the cash on a old willy engine, if you only want 150-160bhp?

 

[lofty]

what benefits have you felt Jimbo? did you go for the cams as well? how much grief are the seals and bearing etc?

 

[Nick Read]

Well AFAIK the 19 and Clio 1.8 heads are identical. The inlet manifold is definitely different and the throttle cable and air filter wont bolt on properly any more if you use a 19 inlet manifold.

 

[jimbo1]

with my 19, ive got a rammed airbox, and gasflowed head, with standard exhaust. the benefits arent that great, but with a chip and stainless decatted exhaust, the power thruout th rev range will be improved. for me, ive noticed it feels more torquey during normal driving, and wen floggin the acceleration begins again after every upshift. after a gasflowed head, cams wud be the next step(so long as uv got decent induction and extraction). then for best power and driveablilty, a unichip would work a treat. im sure then youd be looking at over 155-160bhp.

if you can do the work urself then it can be cheaper. like buying the head from bb perfomance which is 450quid, then the cams(£140) pulleys(£140), then unichip(£400). plus, dotn be conned into buying new followers/tappets!!!!! the exisitng tappets jsut need linishing to bring back to new, then theyre ready for reground cam use!

jimbo

p.s. if any1s intersted in tappet reconning, lemme no and il explain it

 

[BenR]

twin dcoes will be a pain to setup. re route the throttle cable, find the right jets and emulsifying tubes, regulator to lower pressure, new manifold. and setting them up will takes ages and ages, and whenc ombined with setting up the cam, itll take evenlonger. Vernier pulleys are only raelly useful in that they allow you to reset the cams to tehir originla position with no need ot reset TDC and dial gauges etc.

a 160 bhp 16V motor will be fun because, if we get stronget arp end bolts and balance the bottom end, there is no reason why you can impose a limit of 9000rpm!!!!! vtec.....bloody amateurs!

parts will probably cost over 150 quid..barring cams, pulleys etc.

overall, i would say your looking (if i do the work about 450 quid for the had and mfold ported, your parts which may be close to 400 quid, development time on the rollers. so you could get away with just under 1000 quid...if all goes well, oh, we will also need it flow tested mid stage to check all the ports flow the same.

 

[Pysco]

Does anyone know where you can get uprated internals fo the F7P? Forged pistons, stronger rods, crank, etc. gonna be running a 100bhp NOS shot soon, same as Nick, but I wanna go higher eventuly but the standard engine wont take it.

What would I actualy need to uprate to get close to 300bhp out if it? Will the gearbox take this?

Cheers, Simon.

 

[Colin_S]

What benefit does solid lifters make if any over hydraulic?

 

[BenR]

The gearbox should be ok as long as there are no real sharp boosts of torque (progressive controller etc), as its been used in race conditions for ages. But you can buy race interenals as well as a 6 speed sequentian kit from prima, i dont recommend prima, but thre the only people i kow who do it....at an extorinate price and with the worst service.

They might do stronger interenals but the standard crank and rods once balanced, shot peeded to relieve stress, nitrided etc, will be up for much more. Most importent is the end bolts at high rpm otherwise a piston will go through your bonet.

you can get arrows to make custom H section rods by giving one of yours for them to copy.

 

[lofty]

BenR,

im very keen to do this entire overhall, i will start making enguiries about bits and also maybe get a second car sorted for a month or two while its being done, a list of what i need would be really usefull,

lofty

 

[lofty]

BenR,

im very keen to go ahead with the entire overhall, i will start making enguiries about bits and also maybe get a second car sorted for a month or two while its being done, a list of exactly what i need would be really usefull,

lofty

 

[coolspot007007]

I was looking into getting a willy engine and getting all of the above work done, so it would be in best shape possible for a turbo, but i was also looking for an alternative and had a look at a BB tuning engine. But why are BBs 16v engines so expensive, going on what they do to a GTT engine(red spec) it sounds like they do all the work you could want, but its a bit of a hefty price tag.

 

[BenR]

they have large amounts of overheads and development costs to recoup, and i dont think toomany people buy them as compared to the GTT engine. Just economies of scale.

Lofty:

if were gonna rebuild a N/A 18 16V motor from scratch then your gonna need off the top of my head;

interenal consumables:
-piston rings
-crank big end bearings & con rod shell bearings
-new valve guides
-new valves unless old ones are good nick
-new valve collets
-spark plugs (i would go for NGK)
-all gaskets
-new filters (fuel, oil, air etc)

performace items:
-camshaft (dont go too radical mate, i know you could go crazy!!!)
-if wanted (and it would make setting up easier on the road) vernier pullies
-stronger valve springs, double if you want the best
-steel or titanium valve caps
-new HT leads
-uprated cam belt
- coil if you want to

all off the top of my head of course.
but why set aside the car, we can rebuild the engine on a work bench....i thought you wer goin to source a second hand motor....would be easie to work on a clio 16V motor though....i know a good breaker up north if you want the number.

 

[Colin_S]

Can anyone help with this, i really dont know but they are more expensive so there must be some bennifit.

What benefit does solid lifters make if any over hydraulic?

 

[jimbo1]

solid lifters should only be used for high rpm super wild cam engines! solid lifters dont pump up with oil at high rpms like hydraulic, so u dont get valve bounce. downsides to this r that they r noisy in operation and need adjusting avery 15k miles. just recon ur old lifters, as can be seen here;

http://www.nuvision.ndo.co.uk/tappets.htm

ive used this method onmy tappets, and they work jsut like new!!

jimbo

 

[lofty]

Ben after talking to a few people over the week end i think i might be better trying to source a 2.0 meganewilly bottom end and overhaull that without having to rush then use my exsisting head after whatever needs doing has been done, this way i will see much larger useable power gains, and there wont be any rush to lighten and balance etc the bottom end, all this is simple i know, the difficult part is sourcing a bottom end (or even engine) i know Red16 managed to do roughly this conversion without too much grief, this should hopefully see me with 160+ BHP and bags of torque,

in the mean time i was thinkinh of going for the stage 1 hill power bits, which for me woulf only be the Chip and the de-cat pipe (as i already have a Piper X that im happy with)

what do you think of this idea?

how difficult is it likley to be to source the bottom end and at how much? i was thinking £400ish?

lofty

 

[BenR]

well, having seen a megane bottom end, i would know how easy it is just to bolt them together? are they exactly the same? a willy engine is the same block, just longer throw crank!?

But i just thought that a rev happy 16V would be so much more original and fun. I mean, 2ltr 6000rpm hmmmmm, fun i guess. a 1.8 8500rpm......whohooo!!! come on mate 70mph in 2nd!!!

and balancing will only cost 50 quid or so. Mat has an engine for sale, had it for a while, offer him some silly money

BTW, your up early!!!

 

[BenR]

oops, i mean, having NEVER seen a megane bottom, i WOULDNT know how easy it is.

 

[lofty]

according to Ben (Red16) they are the same, as he used a megan bottom end,

Matt? is that Think Auto Matt? clio 16V engine? that would be the ideal solution as then there is no rush at all to swap everything,

also i guess i could sell my old engine when its all been changed

Another thing i just remebered, will i need a re-bore? i guess it would make sense rather then just doing the rings?

for the purposes of re-building is an R19 engine OK (less manifolds)

and does it matter if its got Star ship enterprise mileage?

 

[lofty]

(less manifolds) = not including the manifolds becasue they are differnt

 

[BenR]

well, if the magane block is fine, then it should have low milage. a 19 should be fine.
no need to rebore...that would oly make it larger, re hone it at the most.
Matt Brown, breaking the clio 16V.

I personally would stick with the 1.8...i mean, it so much more amazin hearing a screamin motor at a track than one warbling along at the same speed.

 

[BenR]

"Ive got a clio 16v engine for sale!
matrickbrown@hotmail.com
Mat."

quick!!

 

[lofty]

i agree compleatly,

as far as the 1800 lump, im on the look out for one as a donor, but is it worth looking for dirty cheap high mileage R19 engines?

i would like to have an engine sat in the garage so i can make a start on it my self, but i want it to be right or its all a waste of time,

thanks for youe continued advice

lofty

 

[BenR]

well, since your gonna be replacing all parts than can wear? the high milage wont matter. of course, if you can get a 78k for 150 quid or a 170k for 100 duhh!

I mean, yoour rebuilding it, si i cant see anything wrong. apart from some wear on the crank and bores, guides can be replace as can valves & bearings.....um, cam...your gonna replace....uh,

best thing to do is look for real damage such as cracks and corrosion in waterways etc, stuff which is either impossible of really hard to fix. The crank should ring like a bell if it a good un, a doink means a hairline crack somewhere. Buy a compression tester (with long adaptor to the plug holes as the 16V motor has a deep rocker cover) and check they all match up.

Just general checks will suffice as your not bunging it straight in.

 

[lofty]

what would you deem average to pay for an average condition -

head

block

etc etc

 

[BenR]

150-175 MAX......and they should clean it for that!!

you should take off the head when buying, just look for any scratches on the inside, on the face, i the bores etc, cracks. trust your insticts, they dont lie if you thinkits sh*t, or the guy is a dick, walk away.

 

[lofty]

Ben i have been flicking through the GSF catalouge, i think alot of the bits i need i will be able to get from there,
a full headset which includes all the required gaskets etc (exc. head) £52, the the head gasket is £26.50, head bolt sets £29, lower engine sets (block kits) £24.50 plus all the normal bits, one thing im not sure about is the engine valves, inlet valves are £6.50 each, but they also show exhaust valves, i understand the basic theory of exhaust valves, and am i right in thinking that the exsisting one will be OK and that they wont be changed at all?

also upper and lower timing belt tensioners? needed?

water pump £14.75 could be worth doing? its eas enough with the engine out and the belt off isnt it?

 

[BenR]

water pump and oil pump are good ideas, but we can take them out and look at them firs, no rush in buying them....and no rush with the gaskets, or theyll sit around soaking up water and grease and not work.

If i were gonna change any valves, it would be the exhaust, as they experience some real hard conditions in their life. What do you mean the theory of exhaust valves?

Ben

oh, we can check the tensiones when its all out, but i doubt it.

 

[lofty]

exhaust valves from my limited knowledge stop spent gasses being sucked back in, acting as a non return valve, i guess the play an important part in achieveint optimum inlet and exhaust effciency, and therefore need replacing, but as you can see I dont fully grasp the concept, if they need replacing then fine, how many are there? 4?

i wasnted thinking of buying the bits now, i was more pleased that i had found the bits cheaply,

i hope im not being to optimistic in thinking i will be able to make a good start and stripping and possible replacing soem of the bottom end parts, from August 8th onwards i finish work i will have more time to break things and cause problems!

 

[Colin_S]

I finish my work then too, wish i had an engine to work on but spent all my money on my kit and then wheels.

 

[BenR]

well, to a certain extent your right.

Basic principal is they are exactly what there calle. valves....to control the flow of gas. however, inlet/exhaust efficiency as you call it, is controlled by the profile of the cam being used.

the exhaust valve simply stop the mixture excaping during compression and combustion, and allows it to excape when during the exhaust stroke. The exhaust valves experience higher temps mainly than the inlet valves (the reason for lead was to aid cooling of valves and stop seat recession) and is the only reason that they should wear or more easily burn/ment than the inlets.

The gasses wont be sucked back in as the cam profile dictates that the valve is closed when the induction stroke is ocurring ( basic principal, i can explain valve overlap if you wish) and the mixture wont burn if exhaust gasses are sucked back in insead of fresh air/fuel mixture.

 

[lofty]

no need to explain in any more detail,

all i want to know is how difficult they are to replace,

 

[BenR]

easy.
-compress spring
-pull out collet
-take off valve spring/retainer/shims
-pull out valve

then you go into taking out the guides. its better to port the head with the guides out, then replace them later when done. this way there is no damage done to them.

 

[Alex M]

Im following this thread with great interest, as now Ive had my valver for a while, and am thinking of a 2ltr conversion with head work. Can a Laguna 2ltr be used, as there is no chance of me getting a Megane 2ltr bottom end locally, or are the Laguna blocks totally different.

Keen to do some headwork, done a little in the past, and now I have been working on my valver a bit, it is less intimidating to work on, if you know what I mean, and I am confident of doing anything to her now.

Alex M

 

[BenR]

go for it mate, its the only way to find out....jst make sure you can revert if it goes tits up!!!

dunno about the block on the laguna...only one way to find out though.

why cant you get a megane block?

i would just go the easy way where you gaurateed to get a perfect fit....just buy a 16V engine....and use a willy crank...instant 2L

 

[Alex M]

I stay on a scottish isle and spares for cars can be difficult to find, and I know of several scrap lagunas I could get bits from, but cant remember seeing a single raidable megane, never mind a 2ltr one, I also have the only Clio 16v on island and there are no 172s or Willys.

Guess I could source a block from away, am going to investigate Laguna engines to see if they are the same, or get a scrap 19 16v and get bits for that, is it true a 1.9 diesel crank fits or am I imagining it.

Alex M