Clio 16v / F7P Internal tuning questions

[jimbo1]

yes u are rite, in that the 2litre engine uses the diesel 1.9 litre crank. however i dont think its a straight swap, in that the weights mite need to be changed in order for it to rev higher than 4k that a diesle does, for example. also to make it a 2litre u need the clio williams pistons, which r shorter in height, otherwise, the standard 16v pisons would smack the cylinder head off!LOL

the best bet would be to either by a williams crankshaft(which 4 years ago cost 300quid-mite be cheaper now with rens price cuts!), or find a 2litre laguna engine. or any 2litre f type engine, as thats the crank u want. as for williams pistons, they are approx 75quid each, and the rings are 35quid.

get the whole lot balanced, rods shot peened, and it will rev forever!

jimbo

 

[lofty]

has anyone definitly doen this conversion successfully? i would be happy to try it provided it was a proven thing, but otherwise im worried it might turn out to a bait of a night mare job when loads of other problems crop up,

Im pretty sure the luguna engines are differnt, it needs to be the rear megan 2.0 16v or the even rarer williams lump,

you find it easier buying hens teeth,

good luck

lofty

 

[Captain Slarty]

firstly all, the later meganes use the f4r in 2 litre mode..

As far as I am aware, the f4r will fit directly to your gearbox (But not sure about overall mounting.. shouldnt be a problem though.

the main issues you will have are engine management and fueling (But mostly easily overcome.

I can let you have a 9000 mile 172 Mk1 engine in superb condition for £1395 .. complete with induction but less exhaust.. you would just have to drop it in and conect it up to your ecu.. sort out the fueling and away ya go...

Do your sums carefully if rebuilding an older engine.. get the price for all the parts, double it and add vat.. then add 200 for the bits you never thought off lol..


Joe.

 

[lofty]

youve got a deal £1395 fitted,

i understand what your saying, im still most keen on sticking with the 1800 and getting it absolutly perfect albeit without neck snapping power, what money would you set aside for the re-build? without the inital buying of the engine.

ive enlisted bens skills with the porting, i can get a skim for £20, hill power chip £150ish inc setting up, and the engine internals im not expecting to pay massive amounts for (£200ish not direct from renault where possible)

Im not going overboard for power but just having everything at optimum effciency and im hoping to be left with a very responsive, quick revving screamer of an engine,

any views fore or against very much appreciated

lofty

 

[BenR]

wow!
a F4R clio 16V!!!!

that would rip up the roads!

 

[Nick Read]

Right from what I can remember on this thread, you can get uprated internals from somewhere other than Prima now, I think K-Tec do them or BB Tuning. One or both of them anyway. Forged pistons etc.

The 16v box will take plenty of punishment as long as it doesnt get too much drivetrain shock - so Simon you definitely need a controller if youre going for 100hp nitrous. The (stronger) Williams gearbox and clutch will go straight onto the 1.8 bottom end and also vice versa - 1.8 box onto a F7R bottom end.

Lofty I think you *should* aim for a neck snapping 16v mate. Dont know whether its one mod in particular or all of them together but my current spec is ram induction, Hill Power stage 2 head/manifolds, Willy box/clutch and lightened flywheel, Magnex system all the way from the downpipe back.

Since I went up to HP over the weekend and got 4 degrees of ignition advance put back on (it was running retarded so that I could fire the gas safely, but now Ive got another module that takes care of ignition on boost) its flying. I used to use the gas every now and again to blow off BMWs etc on the motorway. But now I dont even have to touch it, I was overtaking everything yesterday, it was so quick at the top end and the powers right there at 4500-7000, just like the normal power band but loads more than Renault intended.

A lot of people say they want the kick in the pants of a turbo but when youre slaying everything in sight with a well tuned NA 1.8 theres nothing like the solid power that you get.

 

[lofty]

Nick your spec is what im looking for, im guessing that stage 2 hill power is ported manifolds and head, hotter cams (what cams are they?) and the chip, this i will do whatever, as far as verniers im not sure wather they are worth the £140 (im on a tight budget remember) but im not sure if they are included in the stage 2, im hopeing to go a bit further on the bottom end but realisticly that will be the first thing to be dropped if they money dries up, i want to lightene the fly wheel at least,

as far as exhaust and induction, im back on my stadard exhaust inc. cat, but this need to change, but im not shelling out a wedge on a s/steel system that will knock, i want to the cat to go too, i would like a mild steel system as they sound better then stainless steel which is more raspy and differnt at certain revs (reverberating)

and im currently running a piper X, which i havent had any trouble with, i have removed a few bits to aid air circulation under the bonnet and im guessing (and its purley a guess) that is running OK, the piper X is too big to make a heat shield for, a cold air feed is possible but i think the benefits are minimal, i have still got my old air box anyway, i dont know if you remeber but i was running a crude form of ram air before, using a butchered standard air box, the piper X was cheap seccond had and i havnt looked back since,

everything comes down to money, but i have got loads of time and plenty of expert advice on hand if/when i get stuck,

whats the best route?

 

[BenR]

the current cam pulleys can be made into adjustable pulleys with the removal of the woodruff key (locating pin), its merely there for referance of cam timing. The actual cam is secured by the squeezing of the pulley around the cam when you tighten the bolt.

The only advantage of vernier pulleys is that you can play with timing the cam witht he belt on and then reset it to 0 if its not making more power. Just reference points on a pullet really....which you can do with tipex.

not much no need to do to the bottom end as i said before, a bit of balancing will make it much smoother to drive and reduce vibration.

you can get a mild steel racing system from supersprint....very nice!

 

[lofty]

so ben could happily settle for the the head and minifolds, and not worry about the flywheel? how hard is it to get the fly wheel off with the engine insitu? if its just valves, valve springs, cams and porting etc it wont be mega hard or expensive will it?

also what is your method of porting the inlet manifold? someone was telling me the only way to do it properly is to cut it into two down the middle and open it up then weld it back together (leaving rough welds in the inside?) or are you just smoothing the gap between head and manifols? (blueprinting?)

the learning curve is steeper tha i expected

also whats the best cams to get? peeky but not impossible to live with day to day?

i will try and fibe someone doing the supersprint exhausts, im sure they are the ones i saw that go straight through from the front pipe to a single box at the rear (for competition use only!!) remeber my car is shown as pre aug 92 on the V% and has got a private plate so MOT time isnt much of a problem, is the one box competition system likley to be deafening?

ben whats your thoughts of induction?

 

[lofty]

and ben, nick and anyone else wants to guess at what power it will make with the above done? im not expecting miricals but i would like to see a useable increase

 

[BenR]

if you look at the post "i want a good exhaust" i just posted pics of teh clio systems.
and if you want the supersprint contact email me and i will give it to you...i have been talking to him.

As far as the head goes............cut opent the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what a stupid idea, how can you gaurantee that it will fit perfectly when you put it bac together. and how do you weld the middle of the head back together, you could only possibly do teh edges!!!

i have a grinder with grinders with long and short reach stems, bug radius and small radius heads. sanding adaptors, flap wheels, polishing equipement.

basically, we cleanup the head to we can see where any obstructions lye or what can be improved. The we remove the metal with the grinder bits..stop, measure with vernier calipers. each port must be the same.

then we sand down any high points, tidy up with a flap wheel and its done. takes about 2-3 hours per port though, for a good job.

you can polish the exhaust ports and manifolds for a super slick smooth and damn sexy satin finish. The benefits of polishing have note really been proved, but if it can add 2bhp, then why not, its just an etra 2 hrs work.

then you match the manifolds to teh head with teh use of the gaskets( go no larget than the gaskets ther wise your creating a step you should be removing.

you should balance the fly as itll make the engine smoother, less vibeby, and less likely to shake itself to peices.

the whole spare engine would be best to work on and wouldnt cost that much extra. casue a good wrking crank is essential at high rpm (cause were gonna want 8000rpm at least aint we!

i would source the bits first, and renewable parts like bearing shells etc.

then we can dot eh porting work, get it tidied up at a machine shop, put all teh new valves and bearings in...bolt it together....get the cam timing roughly right, run it in, slowy drive it to a RR and get the cams dialed in.

i do not have the right equipment to get the cams perfect.

Ben

 

[lofty]

i was told about the inlet manifold being cut in half, its shaped like a snails shell so it would be difficult to access, i wasnt suggesting the head itself be chopped up,

as far as the slow drive to the rolling road im hopeing this could be a long slow drive to hill power where the chip can be fitted also, and as they will soon have a RR i believe,

i will continue to try and source the bottom end, but there isnt a rush,

what if any cams should be used, im sure i read a post saying the the piper cams are basicaly identicle to the standard ones but with high tollerances, i might be wrong of course,

 

[BenR]

well, buying a cam based on what they call it....fast road, rally, race etc.
is all b****cks.

you need to get the full specs and compare then to OE cams.

i would need LCA, lift, duration to get a basic idea, but setting up a twin cam engine where exhaust and inlet are separate is difficult!

 

[BenR]

you could just use a willy manifold as its tubular instead.

 

[BUTRE]

Something in my mind...

with a spec fast road cam does the car passes the exhaust emissions?
I dont know how you call it... the anual car inspection...

 

[Nick Read]

The Hill Power stage 2 work uses Piper verniers and Fast Road cams. in other words theyre the reprofiled 270 series. The duration is actually 263 or something, but Piper grade their cams by approximate duration then give finer details if you want. The 285 series are sometimes called the top fast road or road/rally cams, then you go to the rally cams, then race. Obviously the wilder you go the narrower and peakier the power band.

270 cams are hotter than the standard profile but very tame in terms of driveability. You wouldnt notice much difference around town except a lumpier idle when cold and a nice throbbing noise when its warmed up a bit.

 

[lofty]

i got a price for the 270s from performance on the net and they are £550!!!! what are my options because paying £550 for a pair of cams certainly isnt one of them.

 

[BenR]

try newman cams, they can grind up a set of cams....you could copy the piper specs if you wanted.

270 would be no use....500 quid for no diff!!
ask for alot, but dont be greedy!

 

[BenR]

BTW, off topic pics are up i hope!

 

[lofty]

how do i contact them? what am i likley to pay?

What would you suggest for an ideal cam profile, im guesing the number i.e 270 is the lift, but there are other considerations such as duration etc, i think Nick and Wongy have got milder mid range cams,

or are my standard cams OK?

 

[BenR]

270 is the duration.
lift is in 1000s/in or mm.

dunno cost and dont have the contacts right now. but ill try find them...almost always at the back of CCC mag.

your cams will be fine, but will be comle the limiting factor at high rpm as the VE becomes low.

 

[lofty]

ben im edging ack towards the 2ltr idea, if im spending that sort of money i would like big increases, also renaul;t are slashing thier prices on 16v/willy bits, so i, wondering if i could pick up cheaper than previously anticipated williams crank and pistons? i would be keen to spend that sort of cash and have the full 2ltrs,

i will ring them tomorrow but what would i need other than the crank and pistons?

 

[lofty]

i will also need rings i guess,

what is shot-peend?

i was told that the engine is modern enoughn so that balancing would not be needed because the tolloerances are so fine etc, although if new willy pistons are bought balancing is easy as it already dis-assembled?

 

[BenR]

even today, balancing is quite worth the money.

shot peened= sing compressed air tofire loads of tiny beads (shot) at the metal surface. It relieves surface tension and stress. on some aplications, its used to increase the surface area.

2lts os fine, and would mean that there would be less work on the head for the same performance. We should do a bit of work on the inlet and system to see if it can increase by any significant %tage.

not too sure on what youll need as im not the most clued up on the actual specs diffs between the f7p & f7r.