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Clio 172 turbo - not quite running right



Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Hi All,

Hoping someone can suggest areas to look at with my newly converted 172 turbo.

Long story short, the engine bent the intake valves a year ago so I decided to rebuild the head, and reinstalled prior to doing the turbo conversion.

New valves were professionally fitted and seated with a very light skim.

Megane 225 MLS gasket fitted, and all bolted down.

New belts and dephaser were fitted, and timing set using genuine renault tools - really took my time with this to get the timing spot on.

Turbo manifold and turbo fitted, 225 injectors, converted fuel rail fitted, EFI ecu flash, MAP sensor and FI module all fitted.
Everything checked and double checked before installing the engine.

It starts well, but idle is lumpy initially and has a few splutters then seems to level out with usual 1#2 lumpiness.

A gentle prod of the accelerator and it seems a bit hesitant and bogs a bit before picking up, and very occasionally there's a pop/poof noise from the engine.
It revs OK once past the initial hesitation.

I've driven it up and down my road....not far as the bumper isn't on yet, and seems to drive OK.

Anyone come across this before?

It's got me scratching my head so any advice would be gratefully recieved.

20210614_211243.jpg 20210606_120340.jpgIMG-20210525-WA0001.jpeg20210614_212122.jpg
 

Adeyspec

ClioSport Club Member
  57 Renault Dauphine
From what I remember with mine you had to give it a few seconds for the lambdas to wake up on starting to smooth it out a little. Id quadruple check for air leaks. Have you had it mapped yet?
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
From what I remember with mine you had to give it a few seconds for the lambdas to wake up on starting to smooth it out a little. Id quadruple check for air leaks. Have you had it mapped yet?

It's had the EFI turbo ecu flash (which will need a tweak due to a slightly larger turbo)

Idle does smooth out the warmer it gets, but its the hesitation/bogging and the occasional mini back fires (for want of a better word) that's got me scratching my head.
 

Adeyspec

ClioSport Club Member
  57 Renault Dauphine
Clip? I've got a friend who has an all singing all dancing diagnostics machine?

Anything in particular I should look at?
Clip is Renault specific diagnostics. If its decent enough you should be able to see what everything is doing, should also gives proper fault codes and issues. Check things like the Throttle position and temps, not sure how it would feed back map data due to having the boost module though.

Have you compression tested the engine? smoke/pressure test?
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Clip is Renault specific diagnostics. If its decent enough you should be able to see what everything is doing, should also gives proper fault codes and issues. Check things like the Throttle position and temps, not sure how it would feed back map data due to having the boost module though.

Have you compression tested the engine? smoke/pressure test?

I'll get my mates machine hooked up....its a couple of grands worth, so I'd like to think it'll be able to hook into everything.

Compression test will be done tomorrow. I misplaced my compression tester so didn't get a chance to test it the last few days.
Engine was running fine before throwing a belt and compression on all cylinders were good.
I used a decent mls gasket and new stretch bolts all torqued down properly, so I'd like to think it'll be OK....but I'll test it and see!

Thanks for the tips.....anything else springs to mind, please throw it my way.

Would a weak fuel pump cause issues at idle?
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
So.....I think the TB may be the issue?!

 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
Mine was exactly the same when I first turbo’d it. I went through lambdas, crank sensors, plugs, coil packs, coolant sensors, injectors, leads, back to plugs. In the end a genuine Bosch lambda sensor cured it. If you can get live data have a look at the o2 sensor feed. Mine still idles like a sack of s**t when it’s first turned on but then runs fine after 30 seconds or so. Once it’s warm it’s spot on
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Mine was exactly the same when I first turbo’d it. I went through lambdas, crank sensors, plugs, coil packs, coolant sensors, injectors, leads, back to plugs. In the end a genuine Bosch lambda sensor cured it. If you can get live data have a look at the o2 sensor feed. Mine still idles like a sack of s**t when it’s first turned on but then runs fine after 30 seconds or so. Once it’s warm it’s spot on

The idle levels out after 30 seconds or so, but when you dab the throttle it bogs down, almost stalls, then picks up.
Combined with awful noise the TB is making, I'm hoping its gonna be an easy fix!
I've got a basic scan tool that threw up a p0130 but after clearing it, it's not come back.

Lambda's were both spot on prior to boosting.

Got a friend with a full diagnostics machine coming over tomorrow, so will see what that pings up!

Really want it running nicely 😞

20210620_214734.jpg20210620_214515.jpg
 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
The idle levels out after 30 seconds or so, but when you dab the throttle it bogs down, almost stalls, then picks up.
Combined with awful noise the TB is making, I'm hoping its gonna be an easy fix!
I've got a basic scan tool that threw up a p0130 but after clearing it, it's not come back.

Lambda's were both spot on prior to boosting.

Got a friend with a full diagnostics machine coming over tomorrow, so will see what that pings up!

Really want it running nicely 😞

View attachment 1544455View attachment 1544456

That’s exactly the same as mine was, same code too. It just kept wanting to die all the time. 2k rpm upwards and it was fine. I fitted a new cheaply sensor and I thought that had sorted it cos it wouldn’t bring the code back up but the live data from the sensor was all over. A new Bosch one was the cure. There’s probably something else still not right with mine cos it really should be better cold but after the first 30 seconds it’s fine so I really don’t care 😂

Unplug the front lambda and see if it still does the same or swap the front/back round to test it.
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
double check that sound isnt coming from the headlight level adjustor unit when you turn the key to position 1.
The initial sound you hear in the vid is the carbon canister, but the rest, and the continuous whining noise is 100% coming from the TB
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
That’s exactly the same as mine was, same code too. It just kept wanting to die all the time. 2k rpm upwards and it was fine. I fitted a new cheaply sensor and I thought that had sorted it cos it wouldn’t bring the code back up but the live data from the sensor was all over. A new Bosch one was the cure. There’s probably something else still not right with mine cos it really should be better cold but after the first 30 seconds it’s fine so I really don’t care 😂

Unplug the front lambda and see if it still does the same or swap the front/back round to test it.
Thanks Steve....I'll give that a bash!
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
That’s exactly the same as mine was, same code too. It just kept wanting to die all the time. 2k rpm upwards and it was fine. I fitted a new cheaply sensor and I thought that had sorted it cos it wouldn’t bring the code back up but the live data from the sensor was all over. A new Bosch one was the cure. There’s probably something else still not right with mine cos it really should be better cold but after the first 30 seconds it’s fine so I really don’t care 😂

Unplug the front lambda and see if it still does the same or swap the front/back round to test it.

Found bosch lambda sensors for £35 each, so I've ordered them.
Prob not a bad call to change them regardless, and as you said, it may be the source of the issue
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
@SteveC_1879

Diagnostics results make interesting reading.

20210621_165925.jpg


So that looks like both lambda and throttle body issues, as thought.

I did record some lambda live streaming too:

 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Yeah looks like you’ve got enough to keep your hands full there 😂. Is there no-one local who could loan you a working TB for a couple of hours to test it?
Got a TB coming from a clio 200, and two new Bosch lambdas coming from Autodoc.

Oddly the rear lambda wasn't reading at all, though I am wondering if the EFI map has deleted it. Dies say in the blurb that post cat O2 csn be removed 🤷‍♂️

I cleared the codes, and the only one that comes back is the pre cat O2.
I think.
the TB is working intermittently tbh.

Had it running spot on after clearing the codes, then started bogging down intermittently.

Will wait for the bits to arrive before setting the boost. Don't wanna cause issues if the fueling ain't right!
 

Adeyspec

ClioSport Club Member
  57 Renault Dauphine
Is the 200 tb a direct replacement? Could cause you more issues if not.
 

Donny_Dog

ClioSport Club Member
  Jim's rejects
That initial poof/pop you said you heard through the inlet sounds timing related to me.
Not that you don't have other issues, by the looks of it.
Disconnect the lambda, if it runs better, then that's a good start
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
That initial poof/pop you said you heard through the inlet sounds timing related to me.
Not that you don't have other issues, by the looks of it.
Disconnect the lambda, if it runs better, then that's a good start
So, I've been running the car the last two days and much like Steve's car, the idle isn't ideal but does get better once its up to temp, and runs nicely past 2k rpm.

I'm 99.9% I got the timing on the nose tbh. All gen Renault tools were used and did many, many rotations and cam position checks and rechecks before bolting everything down.

I think the combo of the lambda not behaving along with the TB has made it run rich on idle which has lead to the mini backfires.
Since doing a few runs, it's not reoccurred since my initial start up, so maybe the ecu needed to do some calibrating?

RS200 TB turned up and I've literally just fitted it, so will see if that improves things.

Still waiting on the Bosch 02 sensors from Autodoc, but will put them in once they arrive.

Ne problem to fix is a knocking noise coming from front right of the car 🤷‍♂️

It appears to be either the top mount on its way, though that was done less than 18 months ago, or its the exhaust/downpipe hitting something.

It's annoying but certainly not a game changer 😀
 

jameswrx

ClioSport Club Member
As it’s been a year or so have you been through the wiring connectors? They have a habit of growing corrosion on these cars.

I had throttle issues and turned out to be the main harness at the bulkhead. It’s worth checking that plug (under washer bottle, remove 10mm bolt and pull apart) and the white plug inside the engine bay fuse box also should be cleaned up (along with all relay pins before they let you down one day)
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
As it’s been a year or so have you been through the wiring connectors? They have a habit of growing corrosion on these cars.

I had throttle issues and turned out to be the main harness at the bulkhead. It’s worth checking that plug (under washer bottle, remove 10mm bolt and pull apart) and the white plug inside the engine bay fuse box also should be cleaned up (along with all relay pins before they let you down one day)
The car has actually been in use....I bought a second engine which I fitted shortly after the original popped, so its only been off the road for a few weeks while I did the engine swap.

That said, I will check the harness connection as you suggest. Tick all the boxes and all that good stuff 👌

O2 sensors turn up today, so we'll see if that improves anything. Either way, I'll be booking in with Chris at EFI to tweak the map as he thinks the fuel idle trim needs looking at.

Cheers for the input 👍
 

Donny_Dog

ClioSport Club Member
  Jim's rejects
I hate idle issues with a passion.
When warm, it'll move from cold start and the target lambda value will change, which is why it'll run better when warm if it is struggling to hit it when rich/cold. If the lambda is 'out' then it just exacerbates the issue. Unplugging it and running it would help narrow it before throwing the parts cannon at it (it would hopefully run and idle a bit better - but no where near normal). On WOT lamdba is ignored, so if it's spot on when you bury the throttle - then it's pin pointed further.

do you have live data?

Problem I have had, is chasing my own tail. To hit target lambda, there is so much data at play - immediately I look at the lambda values and assume it is the faulty component, but the closed loop is controlled by other factors. The MAP (or MAF or a combination), TPS, inlet air temp (on some cars), coolant temp sender... to which the ECU builds the data to control it all. If the injectors are faulty or not efficient, post inlet vacuum leaks, timing etc it just makes the problem worse to find! Hence suggesting the timing - especially if you heard something through the inlet. I've had it so bad (my own fault) at times, that I could even get it to backfire through it!

Good luck though.
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
It's got me scratching my head tbh.

I got Bosch lambdas for a good price and looking at the originals, they look like they've been on the car since forever so I'd have changed them anyway.

MAP is new and supplied by EFI for FI application

Air temp sensor was changed for a gen Renault item as the old one was a little loose fitting. The new one isn't exactly a tight fit - I did consider a bit of high temp silicone to guarantee a seal?

A proven rs200 throttle body was fitted yesterday, but made almost no difference on its own. Interestingly since clearing the fault codes, the only one that comes back is 'upstream lambda' at fault.

I've had no more backfiring at any state. It is lumpy and a little jerky driving at very low revs i.e pulling away until its properly warmed up but even then its not ideal.

Passed 2k rpm it's lovely to drive. Very smooth, boosts well, though a small spike to deal with (its my boost controller needs fettling!)

I took a few happy snaps of live data etc.....



20210621_165925.jpg
 

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Donny_Dog

ClioSport Club Member
  Jim's rejects
It did have 225 injectors before? and it was boosted and mapped before?

The sensor looks to oscillate properly, but the values seem off - I can't do the conversion to/from mV with my GCSE maths. Can you change the values on the data reader? I'm sure it should range within 1 volt. When warm and could be a lot higher than 1v when on cold start. I think.
If you've got them already, then replacing is no big drama and hope it solves it. Just worried it might ignore lambda at cold start and you might be looking elsewhere, but be interested to see you get to the bottom.
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
I'm gonna change the lambdas and see what's what, but ultimately running it upto EFI for map fettling will resolve the issues.

Will keep the post updated!
 

Adeyspec

ClioSport Club Member
  57 Renault Dauphine
this is my old 182 with a brand new pre cat sensor in for reference, seems to be reading a lot quicker and more accurately than yours

 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
It did have 225 injectors before? and it was boosted and mapped before?

The sensor looks to oscillate properly, but the values seem off - I can't do the conversion to/from mV with my GCSE maths. Can you change the values on the data reader? I'm sure it should range within 1 volt. When warm and could be a lot higher than 1v when on cold start. I think.
If you've got them already, then replacing is no big drama and hope it solves it. Just worried it might ignore lambda at cold start and you might be looking elsewhere, but be interested to see you get to the bottom.
225 injectors, MAP, turbo etc are a first time fitting/conversion.

Will change the lambdas and see whats what. Then maybe have a clio bonfire.....🤣
 

Adeyspec

ClioSport Club Member
  57 Renault Dauphine
ive had a dodgy pre cat lambda ruin a cars drivability and fail to the point of stopping it running so fingers crossed its as simple as that for you (y)

EDIT, even found the post and thread from 2014

 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
ive had a dodgy pre cat lambda ruin a cars drivability and fail to the point of stopping it running so fingers crossed its as simple as that for you (y)

I'm hoping do too! Will see later on.....thats if I can get the rust welded originals out.

The downstream 02 doesn't appear to do anything at all.
The EFI blurb does say the post cat 02 can be removed, so I'm assuming it's been turned off via the turbo ecu flash.

If that's the case I'll just bung it and flog one of my new lamdbas
 

Donny_Dog

ClioSport Club Member
  Jim's rejects
225 injectors, MAP, turbo etc are a first time fitting/conversion.

Will change the lambdas and see whats what. Then maybe have a clio bonfire.....🤣
Oh, I thought it was already turbo before the rebuild, silly me. So it needs to go for mapping at some point? If the O2 doesn't fix it, likely get to the bottom of it on the Dyno and data.

Presuming the ECU flash, is to enable you just to run the thing on a base map?
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Oh, I thought it was already turbo before the rebuild, silly me. So it needs to go for mapping at some point? If the O2 doesn't fix it, likely get to the bottom of it on the Dyno and data.

Presuming the ECU flash, is to enable you just to run the thing on a base map?

Yeah, so EFI provide the turbo flash to the ECU as well as FI MAP and piggy back module.

The car can be run on the flash, but as Chris at EFI has said, it'll be better to have the flash tweaked to the car.

Also, the map is designed for a gt25 turbo.....im running a gt28 as I couldn't lay my hands on a decent gt25.
Peak boost is the same but delivery will clearly be different.

Currently got a small boost spike, so running about 5.5psi with the spike hitting about 7.5psi. Once I sort the spike, I can up the boost to 7.5 - 8psi.
I used a megane 225 head gasket which is thicker so will slightly reduce the compression ratio, giving a lite extra margin of safety 😃
 

Fishfire

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Update:

New Bosch lambda fitted.

Idle is much improved at cold and hesitation has been reduced, but still there.
Waiting on Chris @EFI to get back to me for to boom her in.

Whilst I was underneath, I've spotted a minor oil leak.
Cannot see where its coming from, but could be either sump seal or gearbox judging from where I've found oil.

Also....down pipe is bouncing off the subframe. Tried re adjusting the exhaust position but nothing I've tried is working.

I'm open to ideas!
 


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