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clutch damage



Krarl

ClioSport Club Member
Sometimes easier out the top and you don't f**k up your tracking

Instead of draining the pas fluid just take the pump off, scoot it to the side and then pull the engine out

When you get everything out give everything a good check over and if you THINK you want to do something whilst the engine is out then DO IT! Don't stick the engine and box back in and then regret not doing something 😂
 

Robbie Corbett

ClioSport Club Member
Yea, whip it out the top. remove the slam panel and bonet latch mech (6 bolts in total). Bonnet mech just stuff to one side on the cable.

Personally I found it easier/quicker to just drain the PAS fluid and exchange it for nice fresh stuff (doubt its ever been changed, usually only gets done when the pump eats its self), but my pump was being replaced....

Get one of the engine crane leveling do-hickies from SGS:

As you will need to tilt the engine by quite a bit to get it out with box attached. When removing mine I didn't have one and ended up lifting it out using only one of the lifting eyes to achieve said tilt - it felt janky as - don't recommend it.

They also do crane packs including that for very reasonable money.

Some points that I can remember:

  • Remove rad and fan completely - saves smashing the engine through them and gives you some space to work.
  • When did you last do belts - now would be an utterly brilliant time to do that.
  • I found it easier to also remove the mid section of the exhaust so I could push the manifold back more, not required though.
  • Place a jack under the sump so you can remove all the mounts without crane in your way
  • I swapped my clutch cable for a brand new Renault one and cannot explain how much better it was than the original - well worth it!
  • Disconnect ECU and remove, connector comes out with the engine, don't want ecu getting smashed about.
  • The engine loom isn't unplugged as such - more that you disassemble the fuse box, however its dead easy. The loom then stays on the engine.
  • Leave subframe and rack in place, as Kyle above says it means your tracking won't be touched. However this is also a great time to replace steering rack bushes, inner tie rods, any dodge looking rack parts (HP lines etc), inner ARB bushes. Basically everything is about 1M% easier with the engine and box out.
I am SLOW AS f**k working on cars, however got the engine out solo within one day. Anyone else would have engine and box out in half a day.

My honest opinion is that if you are only doing the clutch don't bother, however the moment you combine it with something else (for me it was belts) then its certainly well worth it!

I've done it very recently and have quite a few photos so if there is anything your not sure on just pop it here, basically everyone in this thread are good ppl to ask! I also have a set of Renault timing/lock tools if you do decide to do belts and you would be welcome to borrow them for the price of postage.
 
Many thanks for the feedback, I'm going to go for it!
Looking at the cost of engine crane hire I might as well buy an SGS crane and leveller ( then I'll have it for when I build my own race engine🤣 )

I think I'm ok for belts and accessories, Cam belt about 2000miles, alternator, pas pump and belt all new this year, genuine articles.
Already have lightweight pulleys, tempted to fit a billet fuel rail, but you don't exactly need the engine out for that!
But it would be good to give it a real clean up and check over.

Fortunately I don't even have a bonnet catch, just pins for MSA regs, although I think I will take rad and fan out as suggested.
I will also 100% fit a new clutch cable along with whatever else I need clutch-wise once we know what's going on there.

I will make myself a to do list incorporating all the above, and if in doubt I'll be straight back on here.
Thanks for all the help and offer of loan of tools, it's greatly appreciated.
There's nothing on the horizon apart from a race at Lydden on 7th November, so I can take my time. Shame winter seems to have set in early, I'm a southern softie and don't have a garage.....booh hooh!

Will be back with a progress report soon.

PS. I have ordered a set of new pedals with the heel'n'toe blipper accelerator from @andy_con so that's something to look forward to.
 
Howdy, I've sprinted at Lydden a few times so guessing you're reasonably local to me as I'm in Sevenoaks. Where are you based as I might be able to spare sometime to lend a hand if you're not too far away.

Never taken engine/box out but generally handy with the spanners and keen to see what's involved as I've been thinking of a lsd at some point.
 
Howdy, I've sprinted at Lydden a few times so guessing you're reasonably local to me as I'm in Sevenoaks. Where are you based as I might be able to spare sometime to lend a hand if you're not too far away.

Never taken engine/box out but generally handy with the spanners and keen to see what's involved as I've been thinking of a lsd at some point.

Hi, did you sprint at Lydden back when TWMC had sprints in the morning and SEMSEC had races in the afternoon on a Saturday? If so we've probably been there on the same day. I started racing there in 2012 in my Impreza, great fun and very laid back compared to other clubs and venues.

Definitely go for an LSD, it took just over a second off my laptime at Lydden, and makes the car much more fun to drive. Punsihes the front tyres even more though!.
I was adviced by a fellow hot hatch racer to go for plated rather than geared, and got similar advice on here. I got a recon gearbox with Gripper diff from @NorthloopCup and was very impressed with the service and product. By far the best upgrade I've done so far.

Thank you very much for your offer of help. I'm in Sellindge, the other side of Ashford from you and so quite close to Lydden. I am having to be very careful at the moment as my wife is undergoing chemotherapy, and this shitty sistuation seems to be getting worse again. I'd really appreciate the help, so once I've sorted the engine crane we'll see what the sitaution is.

Many thanks,
Andy
 
OK, cool just let me know.

I only started sprinting in 2019 and attended the B19 arranged events June & July last year but nothing in 2020. Will def keep an eye out on competitor lists next time and hunt you down if we're at the same event.
 
Good visual of what happens both with and without engine running there @Touring_Rob

So I thought I'd make my own, and I can't see anything wrong with the what's happening!
Can't see any swarf or hear any grinding.
The springs seem to move plenty.....maybe too much????

Can anyone with a more expert eye spot anything?

The video with the engine running is in neutral.
Maybe I need to put the front on jacks and take the same video with engine running and try changing into 1st?







































Zoomed in, clutch up running in neutral

 

Louis

I Park Like a C**t
ClioSport Club Member
Good visual of what happens both with and without engine running there @Touring_Rob

So I thought I'd make my own, and I can't see anything wrong with the what's happening!
Can't see any swarf or hear any grinding.
The springs seem to move plenty.....maybe too much????

Can anyone with a more expert eye spot anything?

The video with the engine running is in neutral.
Maybe I need to put the front on jacks and take the same video with engine running and try changing into 1st?

View attachment 1497970


















View attachment 1497974


















Zoomed in, clutch up running in neutral

View attachment 1497975

Whats the debris flying out on the first video?
 
Whats the debris flying out on the first video?

Good spot, hadn't noticed that. Nothing's running but each time the clutch is depressed it looks it spits a bit of crap out of the cover.
The car's been stationary for a week, but I can't see how anything could fall in there, so have to assume its a bit of component!
Can't see it happeneing when the clutch is dpressed with the engine running, but it might just be flying to the inside of the clutch cover.

Guess we'll only know when I get it apart next week.
 

Robbie Corbett

ClioSport Club Member
Hi Andy,

I haven't forgotten about the pictures of my clutch or free cable length. Just got stuck getting my exhaust back on and lined up (its f**king miles out).

My only observation is that in the video I linked (which is obviously not a Clio so don't take this as gospel) you will note that the spring fingers start out as convex, when the clutch is pressed they end up basically flat.

Yours start out as flat and end up as concave. I think a picture of my clutch from a similar angle to you will show what they should look like - could be that yours is just fine however I suspect it isn't.
 
Hi Andy,

I haven't forgotten about the pictures of my clutch or free cable length. Just got stuck getting my exhaust back on and lined up (its f**king miles out).

My only observation is that in the video I linked (which is obviously not a Clio so don't take this as gospel) you will note that the spring fingers start out as convex, when the clutch is pressed they end up basically flat.

Yours start out as flat and end up as concave. I think a picture of my clutch from a similar angle to you will show what they should look like - could be that yours is just fine however I suspect it isn't.

True it does look like the bearing is alreadly pushing the springs in, which corrresponds with the fork angle being back towards the gearbox.
But if you take the cable off the fork, the springs don't push the bearing back.
And if you depress the clutch the fork travel is still c.30mm
So it looks like the bearing is stuck in a partly depressed position and the cable mechanism has adjusted for it.

I can see why this would mean the clutch would not be able to fully engage, like when driving onto the trailer.
I can't quite picture why it won't fully disengage.

I've tried to push the bearing back with the fork, but it won't budge, I'll see if I can use something else to move it back.
Something to do until the engine crane arrives!
 
Not often a problem, but given the unusual nature of this failure, a thorough inspection of the clutch pilot bearing in the end of the crank would a good idea.

Also checking for any run out of the input shaft.

Interestingly. the bearing is listed as an available part ( no 8 ) on Ph1 cranks, but not on Ph2 172 & 182`s.

https://partsouq.com/en/catalog/genuine/unit?c=Renault&ssd=$*KwE4DB0LYzJgTE8mSzkBNmB0VFNNPDM-Py0-M0o6cmRnbEw-Ym1zPjg8PXRmaWAmPi5ubkxAOzs9PhQjLG9leW5lb2lcPDI1SkY9PXRlaHYTbD9kZHx_Sjo_P2IjMWt5aWN-S0E_YyM0aWRoaEpFPT5lbXA4dXlkbks1cCU0L0pdSjxJST1NYxtzPjs4NTg_OAAAAAA5cY-j$&vid=1247&cid=&uid=42034&q=VF1CB1C0F24048244

Thanks for the reply

I did consider the location of the end of the gearbox shaft, but from the diagram below taken from the 182 workshop manual I came to the conclusion that the end of the shaft doesn't locate in a bearing, it just sits in thin air. Is that possible or likely?

What would be the best way to check for run out on the shaft? Are we talking about play that can be felt by trying to move the end once the gearbox is out, or would a really small amount of play cause an issue? If so how would I detect or measure it.

1601221976479.png
 
I started to take things apart in anticipation of the arrival of the engine crane.
Things went quite well, so pretty much have everything disconnected or removed, just the upper engine and gearbox mounts remaining,

I've removed quite a bit of stuff to get more room, such as radiator/fan, the octopus-like heater hose thing, the intake manifold and PAS pipe from bottle to pump.

First question:
What's the point of this hole in the bottom of the intake manifold, it has a weird gasket and seems to seal itself off against the rocker cover. Looks like there might be a tiny hole in the cover, and there's evidence of oil, like it might be a source of some of that mystery oil that appears around the cover after a good thrashing.
Is it some sort of breather? If so I guess the oily vapour is supposed to be sucked back into combustion along with the crankcase breather vapour?
(Please feel free to correct me if I'm using terms like rocker cover and crankcase incorrectly, I'm just guessing really and would welcome the education.)
Pics:
20200930_124954_resized.jpg




20200930_125000_resized.jpg


Second question:

I have a PMS Aircon delete kit which has a bracketry arrangment that relocates the alternator low down.
Looks like it might be a bit of a squeeze coming out still attached, even with the rad removed, but also looks possible!
Anyone have a definite answer on this?
Otherwise I might take it all out, rather than struggle and grunt with the engine half out and the alternator lifting the car off the stands!

Many thanks, Andy
 
The new toy has arrived. Seems really good quality, almost old fashioned heavyweight engineering,
Loads of weight for your money, but no assembly instructions. But I suppose if you need them you shouldn't really be using it.
Good fun asembling it, like a giant meccano set.
20201003_111708_resized.jpg


Thought I'd at least get the engine out today.
The crane is really easy to use single handed, but the load-leveller is a must-have, and at less than £30 real value for money.
In fact I'm impressed with the whole package at just under £200 including VAT and deilvery.
Its next job will be lifting some heavweight drain covers,so in my 'man justifying buying tools brain' it's already saved me money!

20201003_175922_resized.jpg


Running out or light and steam, so the clutch damage reveal will have to wait until tomorrow.

PS. Heel and toe pedal set from @andy_con has arrived. Beautiful work and the extended accelerator looks perfect for the job. I'll post pics when fitted.
 

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Looks better than my Clarke engine crane
I was looking at the Clarke cranes, but a bit dearer when added delivery etc. Almost tempted as Clarke is a bit more of a 'name' than SGS. I went for SGS on the basis that I'm not a mechanic, and it's not going to get much use, but tbh I can't see how you'd get anything more solid and user-friendly for the money
 
So the clutch cover is broken again, but this time one of the 3 'leaf springs' riveted to the cover and pressure plate has gone.

Firstly, this new hole in the housing suggested something was wrong!
20201004_082507.jpg


Inside the housing some scoring:

20201004_090808.jpg


All 6 clutch cover bolts were tight but you can see at '5 o'clock' the broken spring.

20201004_090907.jpg


Close up, I guess this is the remains of what sliced the hole in the housing

20201004_090916.jpg


Looks like the head of the rivet sheared off.
I have pictures of the friction plate if anyone thinks they will be of use but both sides look fine, as does the surface of the flywheel and pressure plate.
Equally the realease bearing looks ok and slid easily back down the guide tube when I removed the box. Guide tube itself looks in good order, as does the splined end of the shaft. Can't feel any wobble in the shaft, and it spins easily.

Here's a close up of one of the two remaining healthy springs, looks to be made of about 6 leaves, then a close up of the failed one.
Any ideas welcome

20201004_094804.jpg


20201004_094824.jpg


Also what is this little circular component? There is only one but you would guess there would be 3 ?

20201004_094945.jpg

20201004_094954.jpg


HELP needed please!
Obviously it would be a bit daft to just bung another Valeo clutch in.
Any ideas gratefully received.

Can these clutches really just not cope with the track work, I can't see anything in the rest of the system that's wrong that might be causing the failure.
What with the Gripper Diff and the fact that I may be adding a bit more power with throttle bodies at some point it may be worth investing in a Sachs clutch, but only if I'm confident there's not some other underlying problem.

Many thanks if you can spare the time to look at the pics and give me your thoughts

Confused Andy
 

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
Well the Sachs has got to be the only way forward now imo. That gearbox casing near where the driveshaft goes on to the diff won’t take much more before it goes through and scraps the box.

The valeo clearly can’t cope with the punishment it’s getting in your application.
 

Krarl

ClioSport Club Member
Yeah thats totally f**king fucked big time m8

Get that box shoved into a new casing, I have a spare box here if needed bud.

As for the little thing on there its where they balance the cover plate. Not that its accurate because there's only 3 points where they can stick them on anyway🤦‍♂️😂

I also have an old original Valeo cover plate if you're stuck too. If I were you for the sake of £15 I'd get a new release bearing, you never know what sort of fine material can get into a 'sealed' bearing
 
Many thanks for the replies, lots of very useful information there, including that I now know the broken part is called a 'strap'.

The BMW thread was really useful, thanks @clio tyres
I can now visualise that with the flywheel turning the clutch the strap is stretched and would be very strong in that situation.
As soon as you reverse the forces by engine braking, in my case changing into second for the elbow when the road speed is still too high, the stap is effectively put into compression, which would separate the leaves, and put a shock force onto the rivets.....the point of failure here I think.

The LUK reasons for failure book backs up the above with the very polite description of clutch abuse:
• Incorrect driven practice Tow starting in 1st or 2nd gear
• Wrong clutch fitted Engine rotation incorrect (Renault)


Yes, I am guilty of incorrect driven practice, reckon I can live with that shame.
What's that 'engine rotation incorrect (Renault)' comment about? Does the flywheel on a Renault rotate the opposite way to most, so a non-renault specific clutch will drive the straps in the wrong direction all the time?

@NorthloopCup and @Yorkshire Pudding I will have a good look at the casing to see how much metal has been scored away, maybe take some close up pics and come back for more advice. If it does need the casing replaced I do have the original box ( huge thanks for the offer of your spare @Yorkshire Pudding, very much appreciated), but not sure that's a job for an amatuer like me, and at the moment I'm not trusting anyone other than Mark to touch my box and precious gripper....no innuendo!

So I think the issue is very much related to my home circuit, Lydden Hill. the standard gear ratios, and the relatively feeble standard clutch.
( I only feel justified in calling the OEM clutch feeble because I've subjected Impreza clutches to 'incorrect driven practice' repeatedly and they've lasted well. But tbh they were aftermarket ,exeedy etc, and similar cost to the Sachs for the Clio. Maybe there's a hint right there!)

I think the big killer is the braking and change down from 3rd at 93mph to 2nd at about 43mph for the elbow at Lydden.
I reckon 43mph is too fast to change into 2nd, and I could actually hold a higher speed through the corner on decent tyres.
But even on decent tyres staying in 3rd loses 0.6sec laptime as the track goes steep uphill after the elbow, so you need to get into the torque zone to maximise the blat up the hill.
Add to this the Gripper Diff has given me a huge advantage in this corner against more powerful, heavier cars, and over 200bhp+ Clios that don't have a plated diff.
So in summary I'm not changing my driving style here to lose 0.6 seconds.....although with my new pedals I will force myself to heel and toe, which will mitigate the problem to some extent.

The real problem is then either the gearing, or the lack of torque in 3rd at around 43mph

2 solutions: change the gearing, or increase the torque so I can take that corner in 3rd

I always planned some power upgrades, so maybe now is the time.
(I've manged to get 176bhp on B list tyres down to 49.3 at Lydden, normally 200bhp+ clio cup/slicks territory. So maybe up against a brick wall anyway)

I think a big change of plan might be in order here, particularly now the engine's out.
Forget the remaining events this year and put that money towards the folowing upgrades:
Sachs clutch......having talked to PMS about compatability with the flywheel and max power/torque capabilities.
Throttle bodies and cam upgrade, the increased power and increased revs should open up completely different options around the track.
ABS delete.......always wanted a bias valve I could play with, and probably kill myself.
New slimline rad'fan assembly to faciltate the throttle bodies.
New exhaust manifold, just to maximise the throttle bodies intake.
New or piggy-back ECU to deal with all the above.

So I reckon that's £4-5K right there. any other estimates welcome!

Maybe I'll just take up gardening!
 

Krarl

ClioSport Club Member
Not a problem mate

Bit of a shitty situation but it should at least put you at ease that you caught it before it buzzsawed through the full bellhousing and ruined everything including the engine block!

I do admire your man maths though "Oh well the engine is out so cams and bodies might as well be added" 😂
 
  BG 182FF
I can now visualise that with the flywheel turning the clutch the strap is stretched and would be very strong in that situation.
As soon as you reverse the forces by engine braking, in my case changing into second for the elbow when the road speed is still too high, the stap is effectively put into compression, which would separate the leaves, and put a shock force onto the rivets.....the point of failure here I think.
Exactly
What's that 'engine rotation incorrect (Renault)' comment about? Does the flywheel on a Renault rotate the opposite way to most, so a non-renault specific clutch will drive the straps in the wrong direction all the time?
Not sure to be honest
 
Might be worth considering a gripper final drive as well mate. 👍🏻
Because my brain is incapable of visualising exactly how the gears, ratios, final drive and differentials actually work I will pm you for more detail, costs etc.
But in very basic terms what would that do?
Sorry to be so thick, but no point pretending you understand something when you really don't!
 

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
Because my brain is incapable of visualising exactly how the gears, ratios, final drive and differentials actually work I will pm you for more detail, costs etc.
But in very basic terms what would that do?
Sorry to be so thick, but no point pretending you understand something when you really don't!
Lol! Well basically it’ll shorten all the gear ratios, so you will get better acceleration and closer gears
 
That sounds like exactly what I need at the moment, along with a stronger clutch.
I guess it would make sense to replace the geabox casing at the same time, so could you give me an idea of cost if I were to send you the original box plus the one with the Gripper Diff.
Also how do you decide on the final drive ratio. I think I get that a higher ratio will shorten the gears, give me better acceleration and torque but myabe have more gearchanges per lap, all of which is good.
Is it as simple as saying I want 2nd 20-40mph, 3rd 40-70mph, 4th70-100mph, or most likely way more complicated than that!
 

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
That sounds like exactly what I need at the moment, along with a stronger clutch.
I guess it would make sense to replace the geabox casing at the same time, so could you give me an idea of cost if I were to send you the original box plus the one with the Gripper Diff.
Also how do you decide on the final drive ratio. I think I get that a higher ratio will shorten the gears, give me better acceleration and torque but myabe have more gearchanges per lap, all of which is good.
Is it as simple as saying I want 2nd 20-40mph, 3rd 40-70mph, 4th70-100mph, or most likely way more complicated than that!
I’ll drop you a pm mate 👍🏻
 
It'll more likely be that you'll be able to keep it in 3rd instead of having to change down to 2nd.

So I guess on the flip side where I'm bashing the limiter in 3rd at the end of the straight I'll be able to change up to 4th early enough to make it worthwhile. Which also sounds like an improvement.

So taking a current lap around Lydden:
Out of paddock bend in 3rd, hit the limiter at the end of the start/finish straight, brake for pligrims, accelerate out of chessons, and hit the limiter again down Dover slope. Brake, change 2nd for the elbow (smash the clutch in the process) accelerate out, grab 3rd up the hill, brake, 2nd for the hairpin (33mph) accelerate out up to 3rd, back through paddock....do it again.
(4 gear changes)
It could be:
Out of paddock bend in 3rd, change up to 4th along the start/finish straight, brake for pligrims, change down to 3rd, accelerate out of chessons, and change up to 4th down Dover slope. Brake, change 3rd for the elbow, accelerate out, up the hill, brake, 2nd for the hairpin (33mph) accelerate out up to 3rd, back through paddock....do it again.
(6 gear changes)

Make sense, and must make better use of the engines output
 


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