Design Ideas, Nick Read maybe

[Paul16V]

As posted in the general section. I need help.

Im doing my final year project at uni and I need to design something innovative. Anyone got any ideas? Something for my Clio 16V would be good. Not sure what though.

Just wondered if Nick has any ideas as hes into that sort of stuff. Can you help me maybe mate?

 

[BRUN]

make a Renault Fault code reader, the only ones you can get are the industrial ones and ur lookin at £300 minimum for one of those

like the small Gunson ones ???

what subjext are you doin it for ?

 

[ClioJohn]

invent something to hit renault with, for making such unreliable cars.

 

[cliocup]

Along what lines?

Materials? Composite brake ducts, new bodywork, re-trimmed seats/door cards, ICE install.

Electronic? Rev limiters and lights, fuel cut systems, traction control (easier if you have ABS already), air/fuel ratio guage (dont buy one for godness sake, they cost pence to make), immobiliser system.

Mechanical/Fabrication? Strut braces, exhaust manifold, rose jointed gear linkage (also reduce the throw), hydraulic handbrake system, re-designed top mounts (you could sell these as the original system is sh*te IMO)

The list is endless depending on what area you choose!!!

Let us know what you decide on...

 

[Paul16V]

Somethink i will be able to fabricate. I think a carbon air box like Anders sugested might be a winner

 

[Ben j]

design something that shootssmall amounts of air into the engine to help produce better emissions and fuel ecomony... and maybe even increase performance and see how much controvosy u get over it!! LOL!!

 

[Nick Read]

The one thing Ive always thought about but never done is a Peugeot WRC style air filter on a Clio. Basically youd have an airbox attached to the throttle body which would fit flush to the underneath of the bonnet when the bonnet was shut. Above the filter cut into the bonnet would be a big kind of cylinder attached to the bonnet. On the other side would be a massive ram scoop. So you would get the benefit of the less restrictive induction kit style cone filter with the super bonus of a rammed airbox system with a very short inlet tract instead of the crappy way that IKs suck in hot air.

When you lift the bonnet you would unseal the box and when you close it the box will seal again. Very easy to maintain and should perform very well. I wouldnt be at all surprised if you saw a genuine 5 bhp out of that kind of work if you made sure you kept the air/fuel ratio right.

 

[Nick Read]

Another thing could be a racers front bumper incorporating the usual middle bit for the rad, but then the offside would be a duct for an oil cooler and the nearside would have a ramscoop in it that you could hook up to your airbox or filter. Obviously no foglights but you could probably find room for them somewhere.

I almost built one of those over the summer so it might be worth a go. Get an old 16v bumper from a scrappy, start chopping it up and fibreglassing and then take a mold of it.

 

[cliocup]

Yeah, we run the type of airbox that Nick R was talking about on our Group A KA rally car. Its a bit too simple for a good project but is just an airbox with an induction kit inside and a slot cut out the top with some foam stuck around the rim.

You then grab your plasma cutter and cut a hole out the bonnet (add some mesh) and when you close it you seal the airbox tight and only atmospheric air can enter the engine.

You can then put a scoop on the bonnet but were not allowed to do that...

 

[Paul16V]

That sounds like a pretty good idea. Ive been steering towards the airbox idea already. I darent cut my bonnet really though, although if someone had a cheap one i would maybe do it on that. Im thinkin maybe a carbon fibre airbox, as i should be able to get hold of that. Thats should be a good enough design as its quite labouress I think.

Cheers guys

 

[SteveJJH]

It would be good if you could do something that you could do alot of repetitive boring tests on so that you can put loads of test results in your write up, thats where the high scorers got their marks on my course.

The problem with that is, if you do soething boring you wont want to do it. I like the airbox/induction idea, so much that i might give it a go. The front bumpers quite cool too.

Ive always liked the idea of creating a flat bottom for a car, with some ground effects and a venturi rear bumper, I think mine could do with some more downforce anyway, I think some research is in order.....

 

[Captain Slarty]

induction kit style cone filter with the super bonus of a rammed airbox system with a very short inlet tract instead of the crappy way that IKs suck in hot air.
When you lift the bonnet you would unseal the box and when you close it the box will seal again. Very easy to maintain and should perform very well. I wouldnt be at all surprised if you saw a genuine 5 bhp out of that kind of work if you made sure you kept the air/fuel ratio right.

Nick, you wouldnt see 5 bhp from that .. cos, as said before.. ram air dont work ! there is NO super bonus... not unless you get to about 150 mph.....



Joe....

 

[Rick]

I cant belive that, I wrote almost the exact same thing as you Nick about the Peugeot Cold air feed in the same post in the Discussion Board part at!!

Capt, I agree with what your saying about the Ram Air effect, but surely if you could surround the filter with cool air from the outside without any warm air from the engine getting in the way, it can only increase power?

Rick

 

[Captain Slarty]

if the engine IS receiving warm air, then certainly getting a cooler feed can be beneficial after the unit as warmed up !!!.

to those who think ram -air works.. try the following..

get simple pressure gauge and hook it up to the plenum.. go for a blast - say to 90 mph, and check the reading.. now go for a blast with any design of ram scoop.. do you see an increase in pressure ??.. nope.. no pressure increase.. no power increase..

you could even hook up a voltmeter to the map sensor and try it.. still no increase..

Joe.

 

[Paul16V]

What should i make then Capt?

 

[SteveJJH]

Why do a lot of motorbikes have ram air?

Surely its not just for 150mph+?

 

[Paul16V]

Would puttn dome sort of fan type thing in there do anything? Ive heard of a company who makes these somewhere. Supposed to cause turbulance in the air of something and improve performance. Not sure if its true or not?

 

[Nick Read]

Youre going against the facts again Joe. Im sorry but you cant tell me that ram effect doesnt exist when I proved it pretty convincingly to myself the other day. Ill run you through it and see what hugely complicated explanation you can come up with to argue against an obvious physical effect.

I was driving on the motorway, when I noticed my air/fuel ratio at WOT was one to one and a half lights further into the rich than usual. I thought that was odd and I certainly havent fiddled with the fuel pressure, plus on a quick stop I checked my fuel pressure and it was exactly the same as usual. Anyway, running too rich isnt a life or death situation so I decided to get home and tackle it in the next few days - suspecting a dirty/clogged air filter.

So I had to jack the car up to change the wheels over and all was revealed - the induction tract from the ramscoop had come loose in the wheelarch. Therefore the induction pipe was sucking air from behind the bumper (inside the wheelarch), rather than having it forced in from the forward facing ramscoop. There is no question of the richening effect being simply because the box was sucking in hot air from the engine bay instead of cold air from elsewhere because there *is* no hot air down there in the forward section of the wheelarch.

Connected the induction tract up nice and tight, took it for a blast, and guess what - air/fuel ratio spot on once again and pulling hard. Whats even worse for your theory about the impossibility of ram-air effect, is that the richening of the mix was not just obvious at 80mph where there begins a clear and definite leaning of the mix unless you supply extra fuel pressure and alter the fuelling map (which I have done). It was immediately obvious to me that the mix was wrong from around 40mph - I could see it on my meter.

Another thing to note is that the volume of air that is forced in is clearly much more than the standard ECU can cope with just by changing injector duration - it definitely needs the fuel pressure increasing to cater for the ram effect once moving at a decent pace, then the chip reprogrammed to run slightly leaner at low revs to compensate and not run over-rich at low speed.

An interesting point ot also consider is that Tims blistering 1/4 mile runs are in a 172 equipped with a Viper connected to a forward facing inlet pipe. OK traction control does help a lot, but come on Joe, how many more coincidences can you try and ignore? There really is no other explanation for my AFR changes other than what I described above, although Im sure you can come up with some outlandish theory to disprove what Ive seen with my own eyes.

 

[Nick Read]

BTW Joe - I am so certain of the ram-effect that Ill call you out on this one - I dont know how you hook up a pressure gauge but if I understand correctly what youre saying, you want to test pressure at the throttle body or inlet manifold? I dont know what a pressure tester looks like or how Id hook it up so I cant really do that. But Ill have a crack at the MAP sensor thing. You seem to know all about my 16v so tell me which pin I need to get the MAP signal, Ill chop into it and hook up my multimeter to give a peak hold voltage reading. And Ill also put money on it as well - hows a small wager like a tenner sound?

You seem very sure of yourself with all this plan to do pressure testing and youve already quoted the results that you think youll see, proclaiming to everyone that it wont work as if that were an irrefutable fact. Not very scientific or objective seeing as youve not done the test yourself and its only your conjecture.

 

[Paul16V]

Calm down boys!! Any help would be appreciated but i dont want people fallin out over it!

 

[Nick Read]

I cant calm down now Paul - Im fed up of Captain Slarty having to sl*g off everyones knowledge and experience that doesnt agree with his own subjective opions - that he proclaims as fact and tries to bully people into accepting, implying they must be stupid otherwise.

If you believed the stuff he posts on just about every single thread, there is not one single person on here who knows more than him, not even when he has no practical experience with their particular model. Everythings always got to be an argument and everyone elses counter-arguments are worthless. Ive had enough of it to be honest.

A lot of people have started to ignore threads with his pearls of wisdom in them, and I think Im gonna have to do the same.

So Joe, thats me signing off...at times youve been an interesting correspondent, but for quite a while now you just seem to argue for the sake of argument to feed your own ego. Ive got better things to do with my time.

 

[Captain Slarty]

No Nick, its like this....

you, and many others, fall for the age old crap that has been going around for donkeys years...

Limited knowledge means limited understanding and you seem to be suffering that - in many areas..

Tims blistering run is cos he handles the throttle clutch balance extremely well, his gear changes are also spot on. The mild mods he has done contribute with his excellent driving to great times. It is both immature and non sensical of you to suggest that this is down to your imaginary ram air effect theory -

Take the crap you just enlightened us with... re the a/f meter being 1.5 lights further into the rich .. you cannot be serious ??. the cheapo nasty excuse for an air fuel meter is reading a narrowband lambda that is totally innacurate at the apx 13:1 of non closed - loop.. yet you base your dubious findings on this.. LMFAO !!!

Answer one simple question WHY do manufacturers NOT use the lambda at WOT ?????.. even your limited knowledge must be able to understand that there has to be a reason...

SIMPLE... it is NOT ACCURATE at all at the max power settings.. to light one little led on your lighty uppy toy for you to see is childs play for the microprocessor in the ecu.. and it cant do it.. yet, you can tell mearly by observing the leds.. INCREDIBLE... you should market that talent..

your problem, is that you let your overactive imagination come into play to overpower your common sense.... and, you appear to sulk lol.. - you have promoted this crap for so long now that you wont admit when you are wrong..... even if common sense is, again, one of your suppressed emotions..

Joe..

 

[cliocup]

Blimey, not even gonna comment. Although...no, just cant do it.

 

[Pysco]

Bloody hell Joe, you really let fly then, lol.

However I think what you said is correct.

Ive been talking to my brother whos studying Automotive Eng. at Loughborough about this, he and I think that although the ram air effect does not work the way many people, including Nick think it does does not mean it has no effect at all. For example the inlet manifold, TB and filter are as we all now by no means the perfect induction system and provide restricitions to airflow, these can cause a drop in pressure inside the mainfold compared to atmospheric pressure, tests show this can be as high as 1psi, 1psi doesnt sound much but can account for upto 15bhp, now if by raming air into the manifold your helping over come this 1psi loss then it will have an effect on power output although you havnt actually boosted the manifold pressure above atmospheric.

 

[Captain Slarty]

I wouldnt disagree in the base theory you desribe apart from 2 areas, unfortunately, they are fairly major..

1. the fig of 1psi that you use is fine for comparative purposes, but rarely as high as this. A modern induction system cuases mimimal restriction, but this can certainly be measured with a differential pressure gauge. the restriction is constant unless removed. An intercooler drop of say, 2psi on a turbo engine is not uncommon, in fact its pretty damn good lol, however, by increasing turbo boost the drop remains the same. It doesnt overcome the restriction, it just increases the pressure out in proportion to the pressure in with the same loss. So, to increase the pressure at the throttlebody end but NOT increase the pressure at the intake above atmospheric doent work effectively.

2. Air disturbance due to vehicle shape and drag. The is a layer of confused air close to the vehicle body which is aligned at an angle related to the shape of the vehicle. To get a vehicle to have good low drag figures, it needs to have a reasonably aerodynamic shape. If you draw a vehicle (say a 1.8 clio) side on, then you can imagine the effect of coloured smoke being flowed over and around the front as in a wind tunnel. Where the airflow bends to flowup and over or is deflected in whichever way, it speeds up.. as it speeds up, the pressure drops (Gas Laws). What happens if you put an opening into this frontal area ?. well, it is surrounded by a deflection area where the actual pressure can be lower due to directional change (oooops). Also, a turbulent effect occurs at the opening in proportion to aerodynamic flow. What you have done is create an area of chaotic air movement. To add to this, the air flow through the opening (and induction system) is not constant, it is a series of low - highs that form standing waves in the induction system, this has the effect of air moving in rapidly, then stalling in effect, at the opening, the same occurs, this adds to the disruption and can actually cause a pressure drop. That is why the manufacturer places the air intake in an area of cool, but relatively undisturbed air.

Thanks for the genuinely well thought out post Simon, I would be interested in you and your bros comments.

ps, the progressive is looking promising..

Joe.



Joe.

 

[Pysco]

Good point, but although you cant remove the restriction as you say its a percentage loss as it were, I mean lets say for arguments sake the whole induction system looses 1psi, so say .5 psi is lost in the airbox/filter and .5psi in the maifold. If you change the airbox to a free flowing ram air system you may reduce the .5 psi loss, your still losing the .5psi or whatever it is now in the manifold but you have increased the pressure in the manifold.

Cant realy comment on the second point as I never completed fluid dynaimcs at uni. but I follow the principles, but wouldnt it suggested with a correctly designed intake system you could make use of the high pressure air? Im sure some of the Jap superbikes do this.

Am I talking crap or does any of this make sense?

 

[Captain Slarty]

I am sure the superbikes can make use of a slight benefit due to the fronatal area and the ridiculous speeds they can obtain.. well over 120 mph.. it is probably more elated to the paragraph below.

On an F1 car, there is certainly a benefit from a large collector box mounted well up in the clear with a flowed inlet port. However, the benefit is more from an undisturbed plenum of air for the tbs to grab as opposed to any form of ram air or pressure increase.

re airbox design etc, yes, a non restrictive system would improve final pressure by illiminating the loss, but not due to ram air, simple flow dynamics is the key. - same as head porting.. bigger aint better and can cause loss of power and torque, correctly flowed is the key to port design. - ie - getting rid of areas of flow disruption. Adding a scoop to the front of a car can actually cause increased disruption due to the constantly changing airflow characteristics.

The problem with a lot of these gimmicks is that at first glance they sound plausible, until you assess what is actually happening.



Joe

 

[Pysco]

ok, cheers for the info. mate. Another point I was thinking about, wouldnt a sealed system running all the way down to the front and fitting a scope mess up all the pulse progression in the system?

 

[Captain Slarty]

absolutely yes !.

unless you had a wind tunnel and dyno lol...

that is one of thae major problems leading to negative effects, on a turbo, you can overcome this by brute force, but not with N.A.

Joe.

 

[Jas]

..but... sometimes, ignorance is bliss.... and a damn site less boring and more relaxing as well...

 

[SteveJJH]

Just a quick point, but air boxes that have a ram air effect were banned in F1 a few years back. Do you remember the change over period when all the cars had big slots cut in the rear of the bodywork?

 

[cliocup]

Still have big slots cut in the engine cover. The bigger the slot the cooler the engine and exhausts can run but it upsets the aero, and ultimately, you go slower.

Thats why quali engine covers have hardly any slots as you are only doing one or two flying laps, then everything cools off.

On a clio though, loose your spare wheel and some sound deadening and run with low fuel. You will have FAR more of an advantage than any airbox can give you; "ram air" or no "ram air"...

 

[BenR]

The use of the open plenham as capt say is merely to keep conditions inside as constant as possible. in undisrupted airflow, cooler and less dirty.

if it was mounted it teh front, then the car in front could design a particualrly disruptive diffuser and rear wind to ruin any fluid movement of or intot eh following cars airbox.it could also direct hot rad ar and exhausts.......making overtaking even more impossible than it is now.

And teh use of variable length inlet tracts has more benefit than the ram air.....which if it did have any positive effect, the plenham intake would be 15 feet up and the size of a dustbin lid.........

also, consider the movement of air INSIDE the aibox. say you go get positive pressure from the front vent or whatever, once it hits the filter, the directional flow will be disrupted and the area before the filter will reach a max pressure (go with me on this LOL) and no more air can be rammed in thus the engine will still only proccess the amount of air it origianally did. You would need to create a positive pressure in the MINIFOLD and inlet ports and providing sucha huge volume of air simply thourhg the ram effect is impossible.....hence the use of a turbo.......the filter is before the compressor, not after.

 

[lee922]

while you lot are discussing air boxes. would a tuned pipe similar to the ones used on honda civics make much of a differance??

on the rollers a civic is looking at 3-5 bhp from the standard figures when run with this system.

ive just read throught the whole thread and am now confussed .

 

[BenR]

a tunned pipe......please exapnd.

are we talking inlet or exhaust?

there is a large benefit from tunning the length of the inlet track to take advantage of the energy in the sound waves that emmit from the beginning (note valve end) of the inlet tract.

many people call it many things.....but yes, it does work........but its very very trial and error....althought you can calculate rough inlet lengths.

Si.....shall we delve into pulse plates? LOL

 

[lee922]

all it would take would be to make a gasket from the manifold on to a pipe of a set length. By trial and error of course.

apparently the tube is slightly smaller toward one end and has the effect of increasing the velocity of the air... but like you say trial an error.

then there is the problem of location the filter some where in the engine bay.

this is going to be my next project.....

 

[Nick Read]

Ben R - I like the tactics, disrupting the airflow and directing hot radiator airflow at the car behind...sounds like the Wacky Races!

 

[BenR]

Well, pulse tunning of inlet tracts is a bit more complex than simply making the air move faster, its harnessing the energy IN in the sound waves created (pulses) and using it to help move/force more mixture into the cylinder.