Whats the difference between double de-clutching and simply matching the revs for the next lower gear?
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Do you blip the throttle of down changes?
- Thread starter lusty v-tec
- Start date
I know I am new round here but I thought I would share my pedal pushing antics.
I ddc (double de clutch) 95% of my gear changes. I grew up watching my Father drive who had in turn watched HIS Father drive older non syncromesh gearbox's. The non syncromesh 'boxes were the reason for using ddc as the 'clutch up' extra rev allowed internal matching of gearbox shaft speeds before the gears meshed at the same/similar speed and this prevented crunching. It was used both up and down the box and if you ever see one of those old wagons on the way to a show, then have a listen as the driver ddc's up and down the box.
The very day I passed my test, I taught myself how to ddc and heel and toeing is the next natural step to follow ddc as the very first time you come to change down whilst braking, it feels like there is something not quite right.
Some people heel and toe using their foot on the brake pedal and their heel moving over to the throttle to blip the revs up to match the intended next gear speed. I am very lucky that my ankle is articulate enough to allow me to use the side of my foot to blip the throttle and this makes it a little easier.
The biggest 'thrill' about heel and toeing(h and t) is that you can not feel the gear change at all through the car. The plus side of this is that there is no jerk or slip passed to the driven wheels during a gear change and it is especially important in a RWD car as an incorrect change can cause the rear wheels to lock up and throw the car sideways.
The principal of ddc is
1 press down clutch
2 move gear lever into neutral
3 let clutch up
4 blip accelerator to the right revs of the lower gear
5 press down clutch
6 move gear lever to next lowest gear
7 let clutch up
PERFECT downchange !!
The hardest part is step 4 as it takes time and practice to get a feel for how much you should rev the car. Too much and you will sound like a bad boy at a McDonalds meet, not enough and the car will snatch on the downchange.
Get it bang on and a passenger with their eyes closed will not be able to feel the change at all-and you will have a little smile on your face.
The next step is heel and toeing. This combined with ddc allows you to carry out an absolutley perfect gearchange whilst braking for a corner.
Follow steps 1-7 above but this time whilst you are braking, allow the side of your foot(or heel) to carry out step 4. The hardest part of this is to not let your braking modulation change in the slightest as you press the throttle as this will unbalance the car. Try to be as consistent as possible and again after practice, the perfect gear change whilst under braking will be carried out.
The outside factors of the above are the pressing of the brake pedal. The initial press must be done very very gently( to settle the nose of the car and reduce weight transfer-thus reducing rear end lift and potential oversteer) and from then on progessively harder until just before the apex of the bend upon which the brake pedal must be released slowly to avoid unsettling the car again.
If you are really cheeky and have a fast reving engine and a quick foot, it is possible to add an extra little blip to the very last phase of step 7-this is really showboating, but it sounds ace!!!
After all the time it took me to write the above, ddc really does not have a place in a modern day motor as the synchros take away the need for its use.
A simple blip like this..
1 press down clutch
2 move gear lever to next lowest gear
3 Just before lifting up the clutch press the throttle to match the revs of that lower gear
4 PERFECT gear change
Now re read above and add heel and toeing to this system and you are sorted!-although you cant 'cheeky blip' on this method-lol
The last one is 'sustained change'
1 driving along a normal peice of flat road in a high gear.
2 suddenly the need to move quicker happens
3 leave throttle position EXACTLY as it was
4 Using either the above ddc method or a standard shift move the gear lever to the next lowest gear.
5 listen as the gear slots home perfectly for a PERFECT downchange
The above method is very very old school and I believe is still taught by the police driver training unit, but is also used by chauffers and the like for a seemless almost automatic feel to a downchange.
Sorry for being so anal about all of this but it is something that I have practised all my driving life (22 years) and I still count the amount of imperfect changes I make on a short trip--1 or 2 at the most:clown:....
When you are pressing on, especially on a track, there is no better way of smoothing a change using the heel and toe method. When racing there is absolutely no point in wasting precious time in ddc but matching your revs on a downchange will save you money on driveline components, make your car a lot smoother and of course sound better
Next time you go to watch clubman racing, choose a downhill tight bend and listen to the amount of racers that actually match their revs between gears. The ones that dont, will leave a little black mark on the circuit and their cars will be shuddering as the drive train tries in vain to catch up different rotational speeds.
The other thing that is possible to do, is whislt braking in a turbocharged car, use the same principle of heel and toeing to keep the revs up. So for example brake hard but at the same time use the side of your foot to keep the revs up-it is similar to left foot braking(which I am not going to go into as my fingers are tired) but without the need to use the left foot as an extended handbrake-thus keeping the turbo on the boil and the car smooth!
People that can afford cars that blip the engine automatically between downchanges are very very lucky(and I hope that is me one day) but ultimately they are missing out on a little driving pleasure!!
Cheers
FE.
I ddc (double de clutch) 95% of my gear changes. I grew up watching my Father drive who had in turn watched HIS Father drive older non syncromesh gearbox's. The non syncromesh 'boxes were the reason for using ddc as the 'clutch up' extra rev allowed internal matching of gearbox shaft speeds before the gears meshed at the same/similar speed and this prevented crunching. It was used both up and down the box and if you ever see one of those old wagons on the way to a show, then have a listen as the driver ddc's up and down the box.
The very day I passed my test, I taught myself how to ddc and heel and toeing is the next natural step to follow ddc as the very first time you come to change down whilst braking, it feels like there is something not quite right.
Some people heel and toe using their foot on the brake pedal and their heel moving over to the throttle to blip the revs up to match the intended next gear speed. I am very lucky that my ankle is articulate enough to allow me to use the side of my foot to blip the throttle and this makes it a little easier.
The biggest 'thrill' about heel and toeing(h and t) is that you can not feel the gear change at all through the car. The plus side of this is that there is no jerk or slip passed to the driven wheels during a gear change and it is especially important in a RWD car as an incorrect change can cause the rear wheels to lock up and throw the car sideways.
The principal of ddc is
1 press down clutch
2 move gear lever into neutral
3 let clutch up
4 blip accelerator to the right revs of the lower gear
5 press down clutch
6 move gear lever to next lowest gear
7 let clutch up
PERFECT downchange !!
The hardest part is step 4 as it takes time and practice to get a feel for how much you should rev the car. Too much and you will sound like a bad boy at a McDonalds meet, not enough and the car will snatch on the downchange.
Get it bang on and a passenger with their eyes closed will not be able to feel the change at all-and you will have a little smile on your face.
The next step is heel and toeing. This combined with ddc allows you to carry out an absolutley perfect gearchange whilst braking for a corner.
Follow steps 1-7 above but this time whilst you are braking, allow the side of your foot(or heel) to carry out step 4. The hardest part of this is to not let your braking modulation change in the slightest as you press the throttle as this will unbalance the car. Try to be as consistent as possible and again after practice, the perfect gear change whilst under braking will be carried out.
The outside factors of the above are the pressing of the brake pedal. The initial press must be done very very gently( to settle the nose of the car and reduce weight transfer-thus reducing rear end lift and potential oversteer) and from then on progessively harder until just before the apex of the bend upon which the brake pedal must be released slowly to avoid unsettling the car again.
If you are really cheeky and have a fast reving engine and a quick foot, it is possible to add an extra little blip to the very last phase of step 7-this is really showboating, but it sounds ace!!!
After all the time it took me to write the above, ddc really does not have a place in a modern day motor as the synchros take away the need for its use.
A simple blip like this..
1 press down clutch
2 move gear lever to next lowest gear
3 Just before lifting up the clutch press the throttle to match the revs of that lower gear
4 PERFECT gear change
Now re read above and add heel and toeing to this system and you are sorted!-although you cant 'cheeky blip' on this method-lol
The last one is 'sustained change'
1 driving along a normal peice of flat road in a high gear.
2 suddenly the need to move quicker happens
3 leave throttle position EXACTLY as it was
4 Using either the above ddc method or a standard shift move the gear lever to the next lowest gear.
5 listen as the gear slots home perfectly for a PERFECT downchange
The above method is very very old school and I believe is still taught by the police driver training unit, but is also used by chauffers and the like for a seemless almost automatic feel to a downchange.
Sorry for being so anal about all of this but it is something that I have practised all my driving life (22 years) and I still count the amount of imperfect changes I make on a short trip--1 or 2 at the most:clown:....
When you are pressing on, especially on a track, there is no better way of smoothing a change using the heel and toe method. When racing there is absolutely no point in wasting precious time in ddc but matching your revs on a downchange will save you money on driveline components, make your car a lot smoother and of course sound better
Next time you go to watch clubman racing, choose a downhill tight bend and listen to the amount of racers that actually match their revs between gears. The ones that dont, will leave a little black mark on the circuit and their cars will be shuddering as the drive train tries in vain to catch up different rotational speeds.
The other thing that is possible to do, is whislt braking in a turbocharged car, use the same principle of heel and toeing to keep the revs up. So for example brake hard but at the same time use the side of your foot to keep the revs up-it is similar to left foot braking(which I am not going to go into as my fingers are tired) but without the need to use the left foot as an extended handbrake-thus keeping the turbo on the boil and the car smooth!
People that can afford cars that blip the engine automatically between downchanges are very very lucky(and I hope that is me one day) but ultimately they are missing out on a little driving pleasure!!
Cheers
FE.
yep and mine
RB 182
i've been doing it since i passed my test and just do it automatically now. very easy to do in my 182 due to pedals being so close together. its pretty good to in the ice or wet slippy conditions as you dont get the sudden engine braking effwct that you do if you dont match the revs and this stops the car losing traction which is not a good thing
Last edited:
BMW M4; S1000 RR
Double clutch is where you match the gearbox speed with the new gear rather than just matching the engine speed. Double de-clutch.... Who made that one up ?
think about it in its literal sense?
you are de clutching twice-hence double de clutch
you are de clutching twice-hence double de clutch
BMW M4; S1000 RR
BMW M4; S1000 RR
think about it in its literal sense?
you are de clutching twice-hence double de clutch
Think about it. Clutch is a noun
Take it off the car and you have a declutch... Like a decat
ditto. Love it, as it adds and extra bit of flair and theatre to the driving. I'm driving a Polo auto at the moment, and I soooo miss blipping, and heal and toe, although i'm knocking the gearbox down a few gears (D 3 2 1) when necessary, and I've sussed at which revs to do this for a seamless and spirited downchange. Not as much fun as a manual, alas... :-(
g
g
850 T5. mmmm Turbo!
i cant heal toe cos my feet r to big so i do big toe little toe, my gearbox is buggered so it have to blip to stop it crunching.
i dont see the point in normal driving, also double clutching has to be the slowest wat to change gear, it just makes no sence to me.
i dont see the point in normal driving, also double clutching has to be the slowest wat to change gear, it just makes no sence to me.
RS6+ & 40d MSport X5
thats wot u need to do wen u drive trucks with twin splitter g/box'sI know I am new round here but I thought I would share my pedal pushing antics.
I ddc (double de clutch) 95% of my gear changes. I grew up watching my Father drive who had in turn watched HIS Father drive older non syncromesh gearbox's. The non syncromesh 'boxes were the reason for using ddc as the 'clutch up' extra rev allowed internal matching of gearbox shaft speeds before the gears meshed at the same/similar speed and this prevented crunching. It was used both up and down the box and if you ever see one of those old wagons on the way to a show, then have a listen as the driver ddc's up and down the box.
The very day I passed my test, I taught myself how to ddc and heel and toeing is the next natural step to follow ddc as the very first time you come to change down whilst braking, it feels like there is something not quite right.
Some people heel and toe using their foot on the brake pedal and their heel moving over to the throttle to blip the revs up to match the intended next gear speed. I am very lucky that my ankle is articulate enough to allow me to use the side of my foot to blip the throttle and this makes it a little easier.
The biggest 'thrill' about heel and toeing(h and t) is that you can not feel the gear change at all through the car. The plus side of this is that there is no jerk or slip passed to the driven wheels during a gear change and it is especially important in a RWD car as an incorrect change can cause the rear wheels to lock up and throw the car sideways.
The principal of ddc is
1 press down clutch
2 move gear lever into neutral
3 let clutch up
4 blip accelerator to the right revs of the lower gear
5 press down clutch
6 move gear lever to next lowest gear
7 let clutch up
PERFECT downchange !!
The hardest part is step 4 as it takes time and practice to get a feel for how much you should rev the car. Too much and you will sound like a bad boy at a McDonalds meet, not enough and the car will snatch on the downchange.
Get it bang on and a passenger with their eyes closed will not be able to feel the change at all-and you will have a little smile on your face.
The next step is heel and toeing. This combined with ddc allows you to carry out an absolutley perfect gearchange whilst braking for a corner.
Follow steps 1-7 above but this time whilst you are braking, allow the side of your foot(or heel) to carry out step 4. The hardest part of this is to not let your braking modulation change in the slightest as you press the throttle as this will unbalance the car. Try to be as consistent as possible and again after practice, the perfect gear change whilst under braking will be carried out.
The outside factors of the above are the pressing of the brake pedal. The initial press must be done very very gently( to settle the nose of the car and reduce weight transfer-thus reducing rear end lift and potential oversteer) and from then on progessively harder until just before the apex of the bend upon which the brake pedal must be released slowly to avoid unsettling the car again.
If you are really cheeky and have a fast reving engine and a quick foot, it is possible to add an extra little blip to the very last phase of step 7-this is really showboating, but it sounds ace!!!
After all the time it took me to write the above, ddc really does not have a place in a modern day motor as the synchros take away the need for its use.
A simple blip like this..
1 press down clutch
2 move gear lever to next lowest gear
3 Just before lifting up the clutch press the throttle to match the revs of that lower gear
4 PERFECT gear change
Now re read above and add heel and toeing to this system and you are sorted!-although you cant 'cheeky blip' on this method-lol
The last one is 'sustained change'
1 driving along a normal peice of flat road in a high gear.
2 suddenly the need to move quicker happens
3 leave throttle position EXACTLY as it was
4 Using either the above ddc method or a standard shift move the gear lever to the next lowest gear.
5 listen as the gear slots home perfectly for a PERFECT downchange
The above method is very very old school and I believe is still taught by the police driver training unit, but is also used by chauffers and the like for a seemless almost automatic feel to a downchange.
Sorry for being so anal about all of this but it is something that I have practised all my driving life (22 years) and I still count the amount of imperfect changes I make on a short trip--1 or 2 at the most:clown:....
When you are pressing on, especially on a track, there is no better way of smoothing a change using the heel and toe method. When racing there is absolutely no point in wasting precious time in ddc but matching your revs on a downchange will save you money on driveline components, make your car a lot smoother and of course sound better
Next time you go to watch clubman racing, choose a downhill tight bend and listen to the amount of racers that actually match their revs between gears. The ones that dont, will leave a little black mark on the circuit and their cars will be shuddering as the drive train tries in vain to catch up different rotational speeds.
The other thing that is possible to do, is whislt braking in a turbocharged car, use the same principle of heel and toeing to keep the revs up. So for example brake hard but at the same time use the side of your foot to keep the revs up-it is similar to left foot braking(which I am not going to go into as my fingers are tired) but without the need to use the left foot as an extended handbrake-thus keeping the turbo on the boil and the car smooth!
People that can afford cars that blip the engine automatically between downchanges are very very lucky(and I hope that is me one day) but ultimately they are missing out on a little driving pleasure!!
Cheers
FE.
BMW M4; S1000 RR
No point these days really. I still do it to select 1st when approaching a junction otherwise you have to slam it into gear or come to a near stop.
BMW M4; S1000 RR
B--p
ford focus
dont understand any of this wot dus blip mean
D
dick
i use the two sides of my feet, rather than heel and toe, achieves the same result though. just feels more natural to me.
ive got to now due to giving my clutch a raping when i was 17.
tends to screech if i dont now!
sustained change was taught to me in my pass plus, clearly the next logical step for me was h+t,
and then clutchless changes. of which i can do just fine, up or down the box
ive got to now due to giving my clutch a raping when i was 17.
tends to screech if i dont now!
sustained change was taught to me in my pass plus, clearly the next logical step for me was h+t,
and then clutchless changes. of which i can do just fine, up or down the box
The whole point of this thread is education.
No one 'has' to heel and toe or double de clutch.
If you understand how to do either or BOTH then you are enhancing your options as a driver.
Heel and toeing IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY of changing down a gear smoothly with a modern gearbox whilst braking FACT!-unless software and solenoids are doing it for you.
Simply changing down and dropping the clutch is a very brutal way of gear changing and can cause upset to a cars balance(especially under braking)
Like I said in my first post, have a listen to anyone that has studied or enjoys driving or a decent trackday/racing driver, and they will all match the speed of their engine to the speed of the next gear down to be selected.
Its not about sounding good or drawing attention to yourself or messing about, its about knowing you have perfected the smoothest way to change gear.
Smooth is everything when driving a car-and the faster you go, the smoother you must be!:approve:
No one 'has' to heel and toe or double de clutch.
If you understand how to do either or BOTH then you are enhancing your options as a driver.
Heel and toeing IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY of changing down a gear smoothly with a modern gearbox whilst braking FACT!-unless software and solenoids are doing it for you.
Simply changing down and dropping the clutch is a very brutal way of gear changing and can cause upset to a cars balance(especially under braking)
Like I said in my first post, have a listen to anyone that has studied or enjoys driving or a decent trackday/racing driver, and they will all match the speed of their engine to the speed of the next gear down to be selected.
Its not about sounding good or drawing attention to yourself or messing about, its about knowing you have perfected the smoothest way to change gear.
Smooth is everything when driving a car-and the faster you go, the smoother you must be!:approve:
look who the original post is by........ its so he can get to the tanning salon quicker!
.Sorry lusty.:star:
look who the original post is by........ its so he can get to the tanning salon quicker!
Sorry lusty.:star:
PMSL. :lolup:
but its true
A few years ago I did the EVO magazine car driver of the year competiton and I got into the last 10 from 120 or something at Bedford Autodrome. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the final 10 had to do fast lapping in the 'lower' powered formula palmer audi cars. Great I thought until I came to downshift-I heeled and toed my downshift and all the power went dead. Turns out that a guy a year before, had jumped on both pedals and went flying into the armco destroying the car. So they had made the brake pedal kill all the turbo boost thus preventing H+T.
That was me done, I jumped and jerked the car all round the curcuit posting a rubbish time:dapprove:
Old habits die hard I guess!
Hollister-I used to rally a MK11 Escort that had a bias pedal box where the pedals were really high- iirc I think I had them chopped to suit my feet-?
i often find myself blipping the throttle on down changes on the road - it helps the gearbox out and smoothes the drive.
haven't learnt to combine it with braking although i am thinking of having a go at learning to H&T for my track driving, although only for the sake of the cr*p gearbox.
it's got to be said that it is a very difficult technique to master for those who aren't naturally gifted and i reckon it'd take me years of practise before i saw any lap time benefit (which isn't a focus for me anyway) and it would also be less fun (for me) than my preferred track driving style.
haven't learnt to combine it with braking although i am thinking of having a go at learning to H&T for my track driving, although only for the sake of the cr*p gearbox.
it's got to be said that it is a very difficult technique to master for those who aren't naturally gifted and i reckon it'd take me years of practise before i saw any lap time benefit (which isn't a focus for me anyway) and it would also be less fun (for me) than my preferred track driving style.
I did it all the time when engine braking-only but the pedals were not set up properly for doing it when braking properly.
Little reason to do it in a front wheel drive car, if it were that critical they would fit slipper clutches and change the pedal configuration!
Might save a bit of wear and tear but that is it really.
Little reason to do it in a front wheel drive car, if it were that critical they would fit slipper clutches and change the pedal configuration!
Might save a bit of wear and tear but that is it really.
BMW M4; S1000 RR
Please don't get into the habit of saying double declutching. It's worse than saying decat.
Do a search on google if you're interested, takes time and effort to do videos and tutorials.
PMSL!
Not weaker drivers-everyone drives differently
Re read my overly long post 45 then practice some where quite first.
Watch here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-3...shift feet heel and toe gears tachometer revs
and here-very good tutorial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9...shift feet heel and toe gears tachometer revs
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