Double declutching, heel and toe etc

[JoeMarano]

Since @-Jamie- pointed out my downshifts sound painful i've been looking into some of the more advanced bits of driving (im happy with racing lines etc)

What methods do people use to be kind to the car? Do you NEED to be able to heel and toe? Do all racers do it?

I can't heel and toe in the clio I just can't make my feet do it with the pedals.

I have rev matched before and quite often do it on the road

(Basically clutch down then blip the throttle while changing gear)

But on a track quite often there isnt the time with the feet and braking witb a corner coming up.

Basically what I guess im asking is someone please fill me in on it all LOL

 

[NorthloopCup]

Have you tried rocking your foot on to the accelerator pedal whilst braking? I do it that way and it's loads easier.

 

[JoeMarano]

To be honest when I've tried it it never revs enough and doesnt feel safe.

 

[NorthloopCup]

To be honest when I've tried it it never revs enough and doesnt feel safe.

That was one of the reasons I made the bigger throttle pedals mate. Makes it easier and safer to do. You need to give it a good stab though when your rocking your foot to make it rev.
I also bent the throttle pedal lever to move it across towards the brake pedal.

 

[NorthloopCup]

To answer your question though, no you don't NEED to be able to heal and toe, BUT it will give the gearbox a substantially easier time and make your driving style smoother.

 

[MarkCup]

Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. Eventually it will become as natural as any other action you use your feet for in a car, you'll be able to do it without thinking.

That hardest thing I found is to be able to maintain a constant pressure on the brake pedal while blipping the throttle. The only way around that is practice.

Go down an empty moptorway exit road and you can practice 5 or 6 downshifts at a time, don't brake hard, don't rush the changes, just focus on being gentle and smooth. Do that over and over and it'll come to you.

 

[BoatNonce]

When I learned to do it, I just found an empty private runway (something wide open, straight and deserted), and just did passes back and forth. Light braking makes it much harder because you end up pressing the brake harder with the throttle so being able to do harder braking at first, getting the action right, then working back for lighter braking, made it easier for me. As above, practice.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. Eventually it will become as natural as any other action you use your feet for in a car, you'll be able to do it without thinking.

That hardest thing I found is to be able to maintain a constant pressure on the brake pedal while blipping the throttle. The only way around that is practice.

Go down an empty moptorway exit road and you can practice 5 or 6 downshifts at a time, don't brake hard, don't rush the changes, just focus on being gentle and smooth. Do that over and over and it'll come to you.

Yep fully agree with that.

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

I watched a series of videos I found on a Gumball3000 forum about 12 years ago, showing different shifting techniques. Practiced and practiced in my Rover 114 (without a tachometer) until I got in the habit. I don't drive without doing it now.

I'd say I do more "ball and toe". Toes on the brake, rock your foot onto the loud pedal. If I can do it in a Rover (pedals are like rulers) then you can do it in a Clio. I'll second Mark's comment about keeping pressure on the brake whilst blipping, but it's not hard- you just need to get used to it.

If you don't understand the theory, learn it. If you understand the theory then practice.

 

[bashracing]

Double de clutching probably isn't required Until you get very advanced, or have week syncros.
Heel toeing as well as giving the transmission a easier life also keeps the car balanced, as in if are braking at the limit of the tyres grip and then you introduce the mechanical drag of the transmission on top of that you will loose traction,
Left foot braking is another thing to teach yourself because you don't always need to shift at the braking point so your left foot can be doing the braking instead of having to move your right foot off the accelerator onto the brake and then back again, saving time whilst also keeping the car more dynamically stable, you can also use left foot braking to trail brake into a corner if you need to tighten your line up to an apex this works by using weight transfer to make the rear end side slip slightly to help point the front on a tighter line
As everyone's said above read as much info as possible and then practice lots.

 

[Amos91]

To be honest when I've tried it it never revs enough and doesnt feel safe.

http://www.cliosport.net/threads/toe-heal-throttle-plates-alu-with-rivets.776227/

 

[Knuckles]

You're half way there with the Rev matching.

It's just a case of practising to involve the brake.

I learned to do it when I got the 197 to reduce the chance of the gearbox shitting itself.

Just start doing it when the road is quiet. You'll get there in no time

Where are you based?

 

[bozothenutter]

I find it hard aswell to regulate the brake, I have one of Mark's pedals to help.
As I have brembo's i'm going to change the master brake cylinder, hoping a harder pedal will make it easier (have tiny feet doesn't help either)

 

[JoeMarano]

Southend, Essex.

I guess its a case of practicing. I know its not needed as such and I can already rev match and double clutch but they are a bit slower and scarier when theres a corner coming! Also I think it will help out my overheating clutch on track

If I just can't do it I will consider one of those pedals but im one of those people that gets used to something being a certain way and would probably annoy me at first having a different pedal lol

 

[172_Tom]

Try it while the car is stationary - put your foot on the brake lightly and blip the throttle. Once you can blip the throttle to the desired revs while stationary then try it on the move and practice something like the following:
4th to 3rd while slowing down to 40mph (light blip)
4th to 3rd while slowing down to 60mph (medium blip)
3rd to 2nd while slowing down to 45-50mph (big blip)

Try and get the light blips smooth first as it's easier to do a light blip without altering the braking pressure. Once you can do that then practice bigger blips without altering the braking pressure.

I can do it with the standard pedals in most cars I drive, but I have size 11 feet so it might be more tricky if your feet are smaller. I keep the toe/ball of my foot on the brake and twist/rock my heel onto the accelerator.

Footwear is also important - you want shoes with a thin sole to give you better feel on the pedals. I find it a lot harder with Vans/DC style skate trainers than the cheap trainers I picked up from Sports Direct which have a nice thin sole.

There are some videos on YouTube which might help too. Good luck

 

[Nick_Leeds]

Has anyone modded the brake to be lower/accelerator pedal to be higher?

I have nearly got it but find chunky trainers/shoes to cause problems. At Blyton i gave up trying just cause i had so much else to think about being one of the few times i have been on track, next time im going to try focus on nailing it.

Plus i smashed my right ankle playing football so the twisting motion from brake to blip the pedal is a real PITA.

 

[bashracing]

Or forget it all and buy something that auto rev matches downshifts for you, like the Nissan 370Z,

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Footwear is also important - you want shoes with a thin sole to give you better feel on the pedals. I find it a lot harder with Vans/DC style skate trainers than the cheap trainers I picked up from Sports Direct which have a nice thin sole.

Good shoes for practicing for sure. Once you've learned you can do it bare foot

 

[JoeMarano]

I've always wondered why cars dont auto rev match tbh!

 

[Knuckles]

I find chunky dcs to really help.

But after I killed my old dcs, I find converse type shoes to be more than sufficient.

 

[M.C..]

I just practiced with the car still first to get an idea of what my foot should be doing, started off "rolling" my foot as I found it easier and practicing on empty roads (much easier braking hard) and now I heel and toe, I also wear karting boots when on the track as you get more feel and they are not bulky like trainers.
It's just down to lots of practice.

 

[leedsboy]

@JoeMarano Check the video in the following thread, @DanielJames has it mastered. His other videos on YouTube are pretty cool too.

http://www.cliosport.net/threads/dc...trong-still-kicking-ass.777658/#post-10805634

 

[Amos91]

Has anyone modded the brake to be lower/accelerator pedal to be higher?

I have nearly got it but find chunky trainers/shoes to cause problems. At Blyton i gave up trying just cause i had so much else to think about being one of the few times i have been on track, next time im going to try focus on nailing it.

Plus i smashed my right ankle playing football so the twisting motion from brake to blip the pedal is a real PITA.

It already is. Brake pedal rests higher so that when you brake it's easier to roll your foot across.

I learnt it by just forcing myself to keep trying heel & toe as I drove up to roundabouts etc, it soon comes natural.

 

[Budgie]

@JoeMarano Check the video in the following thread, @DanielJames has it mastered. His other videos on YouTube are pretty cool too.

http://www.cliosport.net/threads/dc...trong-still-kicking-ass.777658/#post-10805634

That said, double de-clutching is massive overkill.

Rev matching is decent though. I always love this one:

 

[bashracing]

exceptional racer,
shite taste in footwear though

 

[Matthew]

I think the ST rev matches as standard. Im sure @MarkCup can confirm though...?

 

[sbridgey]

I think the ST rev matches as standard. Im sure @MarkCup can confirm though...?

Up shifts only

 

[Knuckles]

I think the ST rev matches as standard. Im sure @MarkCup can confirm though...?

How would that work on a manual car?

Genuine question as I can't visualise it

 

[MarkCup]

How would that work on a manual car?

Genuine question as I can't visualise it

You're doing say 4k rpm in 3rd, you change to 4th. The revs drop down to 2k ready for 4th but stay there for a second or two before decaying down to tickover.

So all it does it hold the revs at the right level for the next gear on an upshift.

 

[JoeMarano]

Intersting that they did that but didnt bother to add rev matching. Stupid Ford.

 

[Knuckles]

You're doing say 4k rpm in 3rd, you change to 4th. The revs drop down to 2k ready for 4th but stay there for a second or two before decaying down to tickover.

So all it does it hold the revs at the right level for the next gear on an upshift.

Ah, clever, cheers.

Does it hold the revs every time or just when you're on it?

 

[Stu172cup]

I took the Pedal off the splines (of the potentiometer) and moved it one or 2 so when your hard on the brakes the accelerator pedal is level with the Brake pedal
makes it easier

will only with with a phase 2 tho

 

[NorthloopCup]

I took the Pedal off the splines (of the potentiometer) and moved it one or 2 so when your hard on the brakes the accelerator pedal is level with the Brake pedal
makes it easier

will only with with a phase 2 tho

That's a very clever idea! I never thought of even trying that with mine. Lol! It certainly would've been easier than bending the pedal about like I did as its a t**t to hold on to in a vice!

 

[Stu172cup]

LMAO - To be fair thats why i was taking it off on the first place - to adjust it with a lump hammer , then figured that would work once it was off

 

[JoeMarano]

I think I'll practice but if I can't do it its no big bother really. I hear a lot of top drivers dont even bother. The only benefit to me on the road or trackday is preserve the car.

 

[MarkCup]

Ah, clever, cheers.

Does it hold the revs every time or just when you're on it?

It's actually of no use at all unless you're shifting very very slowly.

The natural rev decay on my ST is ultra slow (either because of mapping or the very low friction engine I guess?) so if you are in any way trying to make progress, you'll be re-engaging the clutch in the next gear way before the revs have dropped to the point that the car holds them at the correct level.

If you're just taking things easy though with lazy slow shifts it's great. No need to time the clutch at all, you simply shift, wait a second or two, then bring the clutch up. Hey presto, a perfectly rev matched imperceptible up shift.

I think I'll practice but if I can't do it its no big bother really. I hear a lot of top drivers dont even bother. The only benefit to me on the road or trackday is preserve the car.

What about the benefit of keeping the car balanced on the way into a corner? If you only brake in a straight line that benefit is debatable unless you shift so aggressively you lock the front wheels, but if you in any way trail the brakes in at the start of a turn, and a down shift is needed, the transition of weight to the front from a non Rev matched down shift will have you facing the other way in no time.

 

[Knuckles]

I have to say, a couple of very good drivers I went out with at Css didn't heel and toe.

That said, they had their braking done and dusted in a straight line before being back on the power for the corners.

 

[Budgie]

I have to say, a couple of very good drivers I went out with at Css didn't heel and toe.

That said, they had their braking done and dusted in a straight line before being back on the power for the corners.

If they're only braking in a straight line, they won't be half as good (or quick rather) than those who are heel and toeing and trail braking into bends.

 

[Knuckles]

If they're only braking in a straight line, they won't be half as good (or quick rather) than those who are heel and toeing and trail braking into bends.

Ah right, cheers

I royally cocked up a corner and ended up trail braking it... I don't like trail braking. It upset the rear proper bad lol.

 

[JoeMarano]

I don't see why everyone harks on about trail braking when i was barely getting any understeer or oversteer on a soaking wet track! My evening at snetterton was probably the first time I didnt drive all kamikaze and try rallying it lol and it seemed fine.