Engine building, timing, upgrades etc

[colesy]

Hi guys,
This may be a long one. Long story short I’ve pulled the engine out of my 172 for a rebuild it’ll be going on track and I’ve been there before with crap engines that go bang, so this time I’m doing it properly.
The car will also be used on the road still but won’t be a daily so comfort/usability isn’t too much of a concern.
I ideally would like it to make as close to 200hp possible, what is the best way to do this? Group N timing on standard cams? 197 cams? Cat cams?
do i get a lightened flywheel and get it all balanced?
I want to retain the standard pistons and rods but think it’ll be worth doing super tech valves. I’ve also got arp bolts for the rods.
I haven’t got the biggest budget but willing to spend the money if it’s going to give a good reliable engine for the track.
Just looking for any advice from people that have built them to see what they would do.
Cheers Ollie

 

[Martin.]

Sounds like your ideas are in the right direction.

A light billet fly wheel with ARP flywheel bolts, removal of any AC and PAS will give the engine extra help.

A realistic 200bhp with just cams could be a stretch, but not impossible if you have a freak engine. On realistic rollers 190-195 is normally the ball park for good cams and a good map. Mine was 189bhp with catcam 438s many many years back. Surrey Rolling Road or EFI are good rolling roads which don't seem to inflate figures.

You could consider an inlet like the RS2. That combined with cams should give you a realistic 200bhp and it should drive lovely. They aren't cheap but they look proper cool, and they are rare so they hold their value very well if you ever need to sell it on.

Chuck a Megane keyway pulley on there too whilst you're at it.

 

[colesy]

Oooh I forgot about the RS2 that could be an option.
I mean 190hp would do for me, I want to lean more towards reliability than number chasing, as even 190hp with decent suspension and sticky tyres will be mega fun still.
Megane pulley is on the shopping list too.
First things first I need to measure the crank etc and work out what bearings I need, and see whether the bores can honed and they’ve got some light scoring.
As long as my thoughts and ideas don’t sound totally crazy that’s good enough for me lol

 

[Coops Mk1]

as above really, you're on right track. it's all budget dependant though.

my ideal setup would be:

- ARP rod bolts
- supertec valves
- lighted TTV flywheel

- 197 cams with 8 degree inlet advance
- 182 exhaust manifold
- remove PAS, A/C etc
- RS2 Inlet
- 197 injectors

wouldn't worry about balancing the lot really as then you're crank out too and then may as well do all the bearings and maybe hi comp and then you're off down the rabbit hole again.

reason I split the list above is I want to add the top three to my current setup which has all the lower items already. I made 212bhp when Chris@EFi mapped the car last year. The additions would purely be for reliability improvements as its set to 7800rpm limiter and its pretty much exclusively a track car, so piece of mind to reduce strain on components or make them fit for purpose.

 

[Coops Mk1]

edit, just seen you're going to split bottom end anyway. i would still personally stick with standard pistons and rods etc and no balancing as then if something does let go, replacing the bottom end would be cheap. that why i've stuck relatively stock for the actual engine itself.

 

[incy-spider]

Decent ‘group N’ timing will see 190hp just do weak points like valves and help the engine out with some additional oil cooling when on the track..

As said bottom end/blocks aren’t hard to come by and are pretty strong to be fair. You could pop the pistons out and give it a light hone with some new rings and arp bolts on the rods while you are at it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[colesy]

I’ve got the crank and pistons out already and to be fair for an unknown history engine its not in bad nick. Some slight score marks on the bore walls but the mains and big ends look relatively okay. As you say slight hone re-ring it and some new bearings and arp rod bolts and it should be good to go.

Then I’ll focus on the head, get the super tech valves done while it’s apart. And if group n will give me the same gains as 197 cams I’ll stick with the standard ones.
A/C is being deleted but I’m not totally sold on EPAS but maybe that’s something I could do down the line another time.
197 injectors in a standard inlet will that help any gains?
i will also have a 182 exhaust manifold fitted too.

 

[Coops Mk1]

not so much gains as just insurance against hitting duty cycle on the standards, 182 injectors works pretty hard up around 200bhp

 

[colesy]

Does anyone know the standard measurements of the crank so I can measure it? Cheers

 

[1985michael182]

Cheapest option

GroupN timing
Matched inlets £170
Ktec induction (cold air feed helps) £160
182 manifold £50
197 or meg 225 injectors £100+
Arp rod bolts £not sure.
Flywheel £not essential, saves a job.

Will see 195/200Bhp 160+lbs

Check this video

 

[colesy]

@1985michael182
That’s my plan! Ive got a 182 manifold 197 injectors ARP bolts ktec induction and will group n then get a map at EFI.

 

[1985michael182]

Yep then just work on making it as light as possible

 

[colesy]

Rebuild in progress but still got a couple of questions.
Has anyone got a group N timing tool I could borrow/hire?
With group n timing,197 injectors/182 manifold will it be safe to drive to get a map as I imagine AFR’s will be all over the place. EFI is a good 3 hours away, engine dynamics are closer but I’d rather the magician Chris at EFI map it. Or I drive to Chris with standard injectors and swap them when I’m there? Any thoughts would be great. Cheers Ollie

 

[1985michael182]

I would probably trailer it buddy. No point risking it and causing damage

 

[colesy]

Yeah I think you’re right for the cost of it. Hope it goes well when it’s done!

 

[R3k1355]

Standard flywheel is very light anyway, you won't see much off an even lighter one.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Standard flywheel is 5.2kg
Lightweight flywheel is 2.9kg.

 

[colesy]

Yeah I’m just going to stick with the standard flywheel for now.

 

[1985michael182]

It will run lumpy anyway without the light flywheel.

 

[colesy]

I’ll get it running again with standard injectors run it up make sure it doesn’t piss oil everywhere then swap to 197 injectors and get it trailered to EFI. Sounds like a plan 👌🏻 Just need a group n tool now

 

[Eddie555]

You're probably aware about what I've recently had done, but just incase you're not...

I've recently done...

197cams with 8 degree advance
Port matched inlets
EPAS
RAMAIR filter
TTV lightened flywheel
Running 172 injectors and cat back Ktec res exhaust..

It was mapped at Efi on Thursday and dyno'd at 189.3hp and 162ftlb... Pretty happy with my results...

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

 

[1985michael182]

You got 182 mani on Eddie?

 

[Eddie555]

You got 182 mani on Eddie?

Nah.. I did look about for one but couldn't find a decent one.. I was also gonna stick 197 injectors in as well but Chris said mine safe running my 172 injectors at 95% usage.. I gave it a blast on the main road outside Efi and she pulls like a train now so I'm pretty happy as it stands.. I'll soon find out at Bedford on the 30th how she performs...

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

 

[colesy]

Nice one @Eddie555 i bet that goes well now! Hopefully with this setup I won’t be a million miles away from that.

 

[Eddie555]

Nice one @Eddie555 i bet that goes well now! Hopefully with this setup I won’t be a million miles away from that.

Yea.. looking at what other people do, it's all pretty much quite similar power gains, it seems no matter which way we mod, the ceiling Hp is always around 190 give or take a few..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

 

[incy-spider]

Rebuild in progress but still got a couple of questions.
Has anyone got a group N timing tool I could borrow/hire?
With group n timing,197 injectors/182 manifold will it be safe to drive to get a map as I imagine AFR’s will be all over the place. EFI is a good 3 hours away, engine dynamics are closer but I’d rather the magician Chris at EFI map it. Or I drive to Chris with standard injectors and swap them when I’m there? Any thoughts would be great. Cheers Ollie

I have a tool, it’s an alloy one we knocked up to set a couple 182s for friends, with a decat, stainless exhaust and Ktec induction 189.8 bhp was achieved by Chris at efi standard cams with group N timing.

It is drivable before mapping and giving it a slight air leak will bring the RPM up a tad on idle, but will still be hard work until mapped. Air leak is easiest where the acoustic valve pipe goes in the inlet, make sure you block it back up for mapping!! (This was on standard injectors)

Just cruising is sensible, no hard driving until after, they run dangerously lean in the mid range until mapped...

Chris is your man


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[colesy]

I have a tool, it’s an alloy one we knocked up to set a couple 182s for friends, with a decat, stainless exhaust and Ktec induction 189.8 bhp was achieved by Chris at efi standard cams with group N timing.

It is drivable before mapping and giving it a slight air leak will bring the RPM up a tad on idle, but will still be hard work until mapped. Air leak is easiest where the acoustic valve pipe goes in the inlet, make sure you block it back up for mapping!! (This was on standard injectors)

Just cruising is sensible, no hard driving until after, they run dangerously lean in the mid range until mapped...

Chris is your man


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My plan is to now get it running with standard injectors once it’s plumbed back in, make sure it’s not leaking oil etc. Once I’m happy it’s good I’ll then fit the 197 injectors then get it trailered up to EFI. I don’t suppose you’d want to hire out your group N tool? They seem rare as hens teeth!

 

[1985michael182]

I have the GroupN tool from the Northloop bulk buy the steel one that's copied from the proper tool.

 

[Crazylegs]

I'm still a relative newcomer to these cars having come from a Type R.

Some good modifications for the Honda were a larger 70mm throttle body, port matched to the inlet manifold. Also maybe a larger plenum as well, can see others have indicated that manifold work would help with airflow. Is it possible to get these types of modifications done on the 172/182 engines as like the K20, the Renaultsport engines are quite highly strung as they are?

Perhaps they wouldn't affect driveability as much as running wild cams whilst still making good power.

As above I'd concentrate on stripping it and getting it as light as possible. Also I've not seen you post about improving the braking at all?

 

[colesy]

I have the GroupN tool from the Northloop bulk buy the steel one that's copied from the proper tool.

would you want to hire it out at all?

I'm still a relative newcomer to these cars having come from a Type R.

Some good modifications for the Honda were a larger 70mm throttle body, port matched to the inlet manifold. Also maybe a larger plenum as well, can see others have indicated that manifold work would help with airflow. Is it possible to get these types of modifications done on the 172/182 engines as like the K20, the Renaultsport engines are quite highly strung as they are?

Perhaps they wouldn't affect driveability as much as running wild cams whilst still making good power.

As above I'd concentrate on stripping it and getting it as light as possible. Also I've not seen you post about improving the braking at all?

I’ve got the RS lower inlet manifold going on, 182 exhaust manifold and with the 197 injectors a map and timing it should be Just right.
ive polybushed the whole car (in process of) and I’ve got Brembo hc discs and ferodo DS2500 pads as that’s what I had on my cup nearly 10 years ago when I started playing with these French tin cans lol

 

[1985michael182]

Bin the DS2500 off and go PBS or Carbon Lorraine RC5+ or RC6.

I'm sure we can do something to get you GroupN timed up.

There is a guy on Ebay who does the bigger diameter throttle body mods.
And I would strongly advise you get your inlet plenum and inlet mani port matched. You will see very good results from it matched with GroupN and 182 manifold.
Het some Shell99 and octane booster in your tank for mapping aswell. Every little helps.

Only down side is you have to run it like that all the time but... it's a track car

 

[1985michael182]

This is your port matching company you want to use.

Renault Clio sport 172/182 portmatched and gasflowed inlet manifolds | eBay

Lower manifold has been fully port matched and gasflowed though the entire length (lower inlet manifold port-matched to cylinder head and upper Plenum chamber). I can also match and gasflowed your throttle body For £65 or enlarge it up to 64mm for £120 (also painted to match the inlets).

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[incy-spider]

My plan is to now get it running with standard injectors once it’s plumbed back in, make sure it’s not leaking oil etc. Once I’m happy it’s good I’ll then fit the 197 injectors then get it trailered up to EFI. I don’t suppose you’d want to hire out your group N tool? They seem rare as hens teeth!

I’ve seen there is a steel one mentioned, you are probably best off borrowing that one, we CNC machined a prototype out of alloy to test and have used it, it’s fine but mis use like turning the cams and slotting in and out will wear it and won’t give you accurate degrees.

The northloop one will also be spot on like mine but made out of a more durable material for more use!

I expect we’ll knock a few steel ones out ourselves at some point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[colesy]

Cool sounds great, thanks for your help everyone.
I’ll definitely get my inlets sent off to get matched (after all this corona stuff is over!) as that seems it could be great gain for not much outlay. This forum really is the best with all the advice!
thank you!!

 

[colesy]

Right engine is built back up, just need a group N timing tool now 😊

 

[colesy]

Group N timing tool sorted thanks to @1985michael182. Cheers for letting me hire it from you!

 

[1985michael182]

Your welcome, happy to help

 

[colesy]

Group N timing. Sounds okay? Gearbox is chattering as it’s got no oil in it, wanted to make sure it ran before I committed to filling it!

 

[1985michael182]

Video doesnt work m8

 

[1985michael182]

My first start up