engine building

[bozothenutter]

I think the time has come for me to build an engine....my first, and probably last (unless rebuilds will count if I c**k up!)

The options are bewildering to say the least, and have been chatting to a few people i consider knowledgable (thank you @Radugns, @pure-motorsport )
Still chasing my tail a bit though.....like a big girl..

requirements:

Atmo only
Daily driver
raise compression to 12:1 at least
Must be able to pass MOT (APK here in NL) gas test
Bomb proof
Retain the RS2 intake (will probably go RS2plus though, maybe use a spacer to increase plenum size as well)
Torque spread close to what I have now (ie flat as a pancake)
Would like to hit 210 hp (car was mapped to 169whp)

Things I have considered so far:

- Get the whole PM240 kit, inc block and crank and work from that.
only changes I'd make are retaining VVT, and the use of the RS2

expensive, messing with a proven package, might be to extreme for my needs.

- Get the PM240 head, apparently there are some using them with 197 pistons and getting good results
Pure can provide the block and crank aswell, so one stop shopping which I like!

still a bit dear, but more of a proven combo

- Get one of the Engine dynamics kits

totally dependent on the state of the source engine, they use King bearings

- Get a used 182 engine and go from there
Again dependent on the state of the donor engine, have to go through the hassle of ordering all parts seperately (unless using ED kit)

things I learned along the way:

Donor engines are WAY cheaper in the UK
Stay away from King bearing, use clevite instead
Wössner pistons look a bit iffy finish wise
197 pistons look pretty good in comparison
Tangs have nothing to do with bearings spinning


If you've read this far, RESPECT to you.
so what do you think?
Any idea's tips etc?

 

[robzracing]

I use King Race bearings and have found them to be good.

Yes, I would stay away from Wossner pistons if you can although they are an affordable way to get the compression up.
I use JE pistons but they are made to order in the states.
pure motorsport head is a nice bit of kit but if you’re only aiming for 210 you’d probably be fine matching then ports on a standard head and enlarging exhaust ports.
Keep the standard crank but use ARP rod bolts and forged rods if you can although not essential if you’re not going too extreme.
Super tech valves and springs and Cat Cams. A decent head gasket and you should easily achieve 210 with a good map.


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[bozothenutter]

Yeah, most of what you mention is on the list.
But I have to admit I'm a bit of slut for pretty parts, so I'm guessing the gas test and reliability should be the main driving factor.

 

[JamesBryan]

182 block
197 head, rods, pistons, injectors, cams

Maybe a skim on the head and block to the maximum tolerance.

Can't really do much exhaust work if you still need a cat for MOT purposes.

All that should get you in the 200+ range though.

 

[bozothenutter]

182 block
197 head, rods, pistons, injectors, cams

Maybe a skim on the head and block to the maximum tolerance.

Can't really do much exhaust work if you still need a cat for MOT purposes.

All that should get you in the 200+ range though.

wil the head work with the OEM ECU?

 

[frayz]

182 block
197 head, rods, pistons, injectors, cams

Maybe a skim on the head and block to the maximum tolerance.

Can't really do much exhaust work if you still need a cat for MOT purposes.

All that should get you in the 200+ range though.

Why 197 rods, are they not the same as the 182 rods?

 

[JamesBryan]

wil the head work with the OEM ECU?

Not sure actually... 🤔

Why 197 rods, are they not the same as the 182 rods?

Because usually the pistons will still be attached to them, no messing about 😂

 

[Radugns]

Stock ecu is fine for 197 internals.

 

[frayz]

Stock ECU won’t cope with a 197 head VVt though will it.

 

[Radugns]

There is no need for full variable vvt, you can use 182 vvt pulley with revers action from ECU.

 

[Radugns]

There was a post on facebook, 182 engine with 197 internals (pistons, cams, injectors) with 213hp. Keep the 182 head will rise the compression to around 12.2:1.

 

[frayz]

There was a post on facebook, 182 engine with 197 internals (pistons, cams, injectors) with 213hp. Keep the 182 head will rise the compression to around 12.2:1.

I saw, not sure i buy that power figure to be honest. Every other 182/197 of that spec runs 200-205bhp max.

 

[frayz]

There is no need for full variable vvt, you can use 182 vvt pulley with revers action from ECU.

If youre going to a ball ache of fitting a 197 head, why would you then not incorporate the full VVT?

 

[Radugns]

Well,I saw stock engine 182 with grp n timing with 199-201 hp (without aircon and so). That is insane for me. Maybe some trick timing

 

[Radugns]

If youre going to a ball ache of fitting a 197 head, why would you then not incorporate the full VVT?

I am also build an engine with 197 head, turbo application, and it is easy to just use the stock ecu (with a piggy back in my case).
Using a variable vvt requires different ecu and cam sensor harness.
You can have the benefit of 197 head just by advanced inlet cam when using 182 pulley.

 

[JamesBryan]

I saw, not sure i buy that power figure to be honest. Every other 182/197 of that spec runs 200-205bhp max.

This one has had the head and block skimmed to the max I believe.

 

[botfch]

Seems like a lot of engine work for a daily driver imo.
It’s going to be difficult to make something more powerful without sacrificing some of the reliability as a general road car.

Have you considered an lsd?

 

[JamesBryan]

Seems like a lot of engine work for a daily driver imo.
It’s going to be difficult to make something more powerful without sacrificing some of the reliability as a general road car.

Have you considered an lsd?

Who?

 

[botfch]

Who?

The op?

 

[JamesBryan]

The op?

Oh, I thought you were asking me for a second 😅

 

[frayz]

This one has had the head and block skimmed to the max I believe.

I can only see that upping the torque produced.

 

[dann2707]

Seems like a lot of engine work for a daily driver imo.
It’s going to be difficult to make something more powerful without sacrificing some of the reliability as a general road car.

Have you considered a k20?

Edited for you

 

[Steve]

Chose any two,
fast,
reliable,
cheap,
leaves you with the third + is NOT

 

[JamesBryan]

I can only see that upping the torque produced.

Considering BHP = Torque X RPM / 5252

Wouldn't that mean an increase in power?

 

[frayz]

Considering BHP = Torque X RPM / 5252

Wouldn't that mean an increase in power?

Yes to a degree, but so marginal.
Not to the tune of the extra they’re claiming.
Just my opinion 🤷🏽‍♂️

 

[dann2707]

Suppose you've got to take into consideration how highly strung and reliable the engine is going to be at 240bhp. To me that sounds like you're on the cusp of it being too much for the engine to handle and on the brink of having to rebuild it often. Think @NorthloopCup had an issue at the ring iirc with an engine running similar power.

I genuinely would consider a k20 and go down that route if you're wanting 210bhp +.

I think the route would be way more fun and you'd have that reliability too. Can't see the cost being that much more than the 240 engine package alone.

 

[JamesBryan]

Yes to a degree, but so marginal.
Not to the tune of the extra they’re claiming.
Just my opinion 🤷🏽‍♂️

Ahh right.

The dyno at EFI seems fairly accurate from those that have used it.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Suppose you've got to take into consideration how highly strung and reliable the engine is going to be at 240bhp. To me that sounds like you're on the cusp of it being too much for the engine to handle and on the brink of having to rebuild it often. Think @NorthloopCup had an issue at the ring iirc with an engine running similar power.

I genuinely would consider a k20 and go down that route if you're wanting 210bhp +.

I think the route would be way more fun and you'd have that reliability too. Can't see the cost being that much more than the 240 engine package alone.

That was a driveshaft failure mate on mine. That engines still going strong at 230+/185 lol

 

[frayz]

Ahh right.

The dyno at EFI seems fairly accurate from those that have used it.

In all fairness, and call me cynical if you wish. My day job is running 8 chassis dynos with robot driven vehicles. These are some of the most advanced test cells in the industry and they’re not without their flaws. So much is so easy to manipulate, I generally don’t believe any of the chassis dyno figures.
An engine dyno in a climatic chamber is a close as you’ll get and even those have the same issues.
A dyno is a tool, a safe repeatable** environment to setup a powertrain system. Any numbers that come out of them as a single measure aren’t particularly relevant to me.
An engine is an air pump In all forms and most basic in NA form. In a particular spec it’s only capable of pumping a certain volume of air. So that particular engine I don’t see how it can be making 10-13bhp more than all the others of similar setup in NA guise.

Im not trying to be a nob here or upset anyone, just saying it how I see it.

 

[Usr117063]

Everyone knows the most reliable way to dyno is on the road, making sure the exhaust comes straight out the hood pointing directly at the drivers line of sight (to measure air fuel ratio without taking eyes off the road)

 

[gambit]

So is it worth doing 197 piston and rods alongside skimming head and lots of porting with supertech valves and springs and catcam 421 or 197 cams?

 

[frayz]

So is it worth doing 197 piston and rods alongside skimming head and lots of porting with supertech valves and springs and catcam 421 or 197 cams?

This is what im looking at personally. Not so much porting as opposed to a clean up.

 

[Radugns]

197 internals in 172/182 is a good setup for around 210hp because of higher compression.

 

[robzracing]

Beware of skimming the head though. As these engines are interference engines valve to piston clearance is tight. If you want a higher compression ratio buy pistons designed for that purpose which are profiled accordingly.


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[gambit]

Are the 197 cams timed with group n timing gear better than a set of catcam 428s ?

 

[JamesBryan]

Beware of skimming the head though. As these engines are interference engines valve to piston clearance is tight. If you want a higher compression ratio buy pistons designed for that purpose which are profiled accordingly.


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That one on Facebook the other day had 1mm or nearly 40 thou skimmed off 😂

Crazy.

 

[gambit]

Beware of skimming the head though. As these engines are interference engines valve to piston clearance is tight. If you want a higher compression ratio buy pistons designed for that purpose which are profiled accordingly.


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Forgot they were an interference engine. In terms of stroke were the 1.8lt Renault engines with forged crank a square design suitable for higher rpm than the f4r?

 

[robzracing]

Forgot they were an interference engine. In terms of stroke were the 1.8lt Renault engines with forged crank a square design suitable for higher rpm than the f4r?

I wouldn’t know for certain but there’s a good chance. The F4R design is just about the worst for a high revving engine. Because of the stroke, on full chat the pistons move up and down the bore faster than an F1 engine! (Can’t remember the figures but it’s ridiculous) no wonder they like to let go so easily!


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[gambit]

yeah I recall Being high. These is a smaller capacity Renault 1.8 with had a square bore and stroke and forged crank perfect for higher rpm, combine that in a f4r case with forged pistons and custom length rods and it would be good.

 

[Touring_Rob]

In all fairness, and call me cynical if you wish. My day job is running 8 chassis dynos with robot driven vehicles. These are some of the most advanced test cells in the industry and they’re not without their flaws. So much is so easy to manipulate, I generally don’t believe any of the chassis dyno figures.
An engine dyno in a climatic chamber is a close as you’ll get and even those have the same issues.
A dyno is a tool, a safe repeatable** environment to setup a powertrain system. Any numbers that come out of them as a single measure aren’t particularly relevant to me.
An engine is an air pump In all forms and most basic in NA form. In a particular spec it’s only capable of pumping a certain volume of air. So that particular engine I don’t see how it can be making 10-13bhp more than all the others of similar setup in NA guise.

Im not trying to be a nob here or upset anyone, just saying it how I see it.

Depends how much higher the cr is I guess, if it was half a point higher and the engine wasn't beyond msb I could believe 10hp ish. However agree that 10hp can be found by moving the air temp probe.

Cool job, by robotic you mean the cars and dyno are being controlled?

I've always wanted to integrate a a flyby wire throttle with a dyno (im sure people do it) and create some mad AI mapping system - could calibrate an ecu 10x faster and more safely than mere mortal!