Engine rebuild

[Mack182]

Hi guys and girls

this is going to be a bit long winded so bear with me,

so I’ve got a spare engine I’m planning on taking apart and refreshing/rebuilding

I’m looking to just go for reliability not big power so something like 197 cams with 197 valve springs,new piston rings, valves re seated and new gaskets and seals throughout.

I been quoted roughly 300£ to enlarge throttle body and Match upper lower inlet

£550 to strip head down machine and gas flow and rebuild with supplied new parts I’m wondering there really going to be much gain or even if it’s worth it on just a Simple track car I won’t be racing competitively ?

was meant to be a budgeted thing to do in my spare time but seems the price just spirals out of control 😂.

Rather then me waste a load if money just asking for some opinions ?

TIA

 

[Chambers_RS]

I’ve got 197 pistons and rods for sale if your interested

 

[Jack Clifford]

If you are going to do it factor in the cost of re calibrating the ECM, You would need to do this to see the real benefits of your work.

 

[bozothenutter]

I’m looking to just go for reliability not big power so something like 197 cams with 197 valve springs,new piston rings, valves re seated and new gaskets and seals throughout.

I been quoted roughly 300£ to enlarge throttle body and Match upper lower inlet

£550 to strip head down machine and gas flow and rebuild with supplied new parts

197 cams are a good choice
Enlarged TB is a waste of money, standard is good to about 220-240?

I would be weary about the head quote.
What does 'gas flow' mean?
Unless done on a flow bench and matched, you'll probably just getting a flappy wheel polish.
What machining are they planning?
Guides are pressed
Seats are pressed
Mating surface only needs it if warped.

 

[Mack182]

@bozothenutter.

This is what was quoted for the£
gasflowed cylinder head work is around £550 which includes,
Fully stripped and cleaned, pressure test x2 (before and after machining work), reface (light skim), inlet and exhaust ports fully gasflowed, valve seats cut with 3 angles, valve guides checked (can be replaced if needed), valves refurbished (recut, polished, swirl polished) can be replaced also if needed (standard or uprated), combustion chambers modified and balanced, valves hand lapped into seats and head reasembeled using new valve stem seals.

This is what was quoted for the £550

So you think even getting the head and block skimmed or even minimal taken off if it isn’t warped ? I just wanted to get as close to 200bhp as possible as I’m now going to be running 197 pistons as well with 197 valve springs

 

[bozothenutter]

@bozothenutter.

This is what was quoted for the£
gasflowed cylinder head work is around £550 which includes,
Fully stripped and cleaned, pressure test x2 (before and after machining work), reface (light skim), inlet and exhaust ports fully gasflowed, valve seats cut with 3 angles, valve guides checked (can be replaced if needed), valves refurbished (recut, polished, swirl polished) can be replaced also if needed (standard or uprated), combustion chambers modified and balanced, valves hand lapped into seats and head reasembeled using new valve stem seals.

This is what was quoted for the £550

So you think even getting the head and block skimmed or even minimal taken off if it isn’t warped ? I just wanted to get as close to 200bhp as possible as I’m now going to be running 197 pistons as well with 197 valve springs

Care to share who'd be doing the work?
Ask some pointy questions
- what flow bench they use?
- do you get before/after flow numbers?
- what alterations will they make and why?
a real head porter would want to know what rpm range the engine woulld be living in (high rpm only equals big ports, wide rev range means smaller port to keep up gas flow.

 

[plees]

@Mack182

Im in / was in a similar position. No rush, and the want of an engine that’s capable of near 200bhp. Went through the costs of rebuild, bought all the 197 parts you mentioned including pistons, valves etc. Basically everything bar stripping it down to rebuild then it dawned on me the cost of it all and what I’d be gaining from it all.

Simplified this massively to just using 197 cams and a set of matched inlets as they seem to give good results.

Even crossed my mind to take another step back and just do the group n timing as the engine seems a strong one already.

 

[scullyg40]

@plees So what's your result with the 197 cams and your current setup, and what were you expecting with the full 197 hybrid build?

 

[Mack182]

@plees

I’ve already got all the parts to make the 182/197 hybrid engine I just don’t want to waste unnecessary money on head skimming and stuff if I don’t need to as a £800-£1000
Engine build soon spirals into £1500 or even £2000 I just want a rebuilt fresh engine and something reliable.

i may just get the head and Block cleaned in a parts cleaner and then go from there as there wasn’t any issues with sealing the head to the block

 

[plees]

@scullyg40 currently half way through an engine swap and putting the cams in with fresh belts etc. 197 timing tool arrived the other day so got most of the bits now.

@Niall on here has a 197 hybrid build. His made just over 200bhp at efi if I remember.

All just figures and numbers I know but my engine I’m using made 190bhp after a map, exhaust and induction so I feel I’m backed up in saying it’s a strong engine.

Just be my luck to add the 197 cams and make a couple bhp extra though 😂 although it should drive good!

@Mack182

Could always just get the head skimmed to be extra sure and raise the compression. That’s what I was told to do with the 197 pistons.

 

[Mack182]

@plees ill get a price from the engine shop when they put it through the parts washer and get them cleaned up.

don’t suppose anyone has a contact for renting some cambelt tools and a 197 cam timing tool ?

 

[plees]

Happy to rent out my 197 timing tool. I don’t have the other bits though @Mack182

 

[GrahamS]

I recently built my engine and the costs were a follows. It isn't a cheap business if you do it properly and often there is little point in doing half a job as it will cost more in the long run. Mine was built for turbo but realistically the only difference between turbo and non-turbo is the head gasket thickness.

This excludes assembly labour, loctite 518, silicone for the end cap, measuring gear, pastigauge, fluids for running in and sourcing the engine parts. The latter being extremely difficult as most cars are high mileage and have scored or out of spec components.

Machine shop was: Vulcan engineering
Zinc and vapour blasting: TSR vapour blasting

 

[Mack182]

@plees amazing ill be in contact mate.

 

[Mack182]

I recently built my engine and the costs were a follows. It isn't a cheap business if you do it properly and often there is little point in doing half a job as it will cost more in the long run. Mine was built for turbo but realistically the only difference between turbo and non-turbo is the head gasket thickness.

This excludes assembly labour, loctite 518, silicone for the end cap, measuring gear, pastigauge, fluids for running in and sourcing the engine parts. The latter being extremely difficult as most cars are high mileage and have scored or out of spec components.

Machine shop was: Vulcan engineering
Zinc and vapour blasting: TSR vapour blasting

View attachment 1469027
View attachment 1469026

Yer I’m now finding out it spirals. And after removing the crank I’ve now found piston 2 has either spun a shell or something as the bearing has thinned out by 0.4mm and the cranks is 0.3mm smaller then the other 3.
So piston 1,3,4 are 48mm and piston 2 is 47.7 so I’m going to have to get the crank sorted and buy an Over size shell

 

[bozothenutter]

Yer I’m now finding out it spirals. And after removing the crank I’ve now found piston 2 has either spun a shell or something as the bearing has thinned out by 0.4mm and the cranks is 0.3mm smaller then the other 3.
So piston 1,3,4 are 48mm and piston 2 is 47.7 so I’m going to have to get the crank sorted and buy an Over size shell

That sucks mate!
But count yourself lucky you're in the UK,...hourly rates and parts pricing are shocking here in NL

 

[Mack182]

So spent a few hours this evening stripping the head off and down and pulling the pistons out to be greeted by this once the rocker was off

few people have said not to worry about it as it’s not near the cam seal or any oil or water ways, not sure how I feel about it what’s people’s opinions ?

 

[Mack182]

So engine is now pretty much built up and onto the last final pieces, I’m looking for some advice/opinions,

the spec is as follows
197 pistons, 197 cams ,Cat cam valve springs in a 182 head

now Would you run 197 spark plugs pfr7z-tg or 182 ones pfr6e-10 ?

and I’m looking to up rate injectors either 197 ones or 225 one ?

 

[plees]

Can’t remember 100% but I think I got told to run the 197 spark plugs with that setup.
Also 197 injectors. 225 ones can’t be scaled down enough on these for the power 👍🏻

 

[Mack182]

Can’t remember 100% but I think I got told to run the 197 spark plugs with that setup.
Also 197 injectors. 225 ones can’t be scaled down enough on these for the power 👍🏻

Amazing cheers mate

 

[plees]

@Niall uses them on his setup which is very similar!
Just had a word and double checked with him 👍🏻

 

[Mack182]

Another thing when the New engine is fitted when it comes to starting it up do you think I should be using running in oil ?

My other concern Is starting the car and letting it run without having the ECU mapped to the new pistons ,cams and injectors do you believe I could probably leave the 182 injectors in the rail and start the car up and everything would be fine ?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Another thing when the New engine is fitted when it comes to starting it up do you think I should be using running in oil ?

My other concern Is starting the car and letting it run without having the ECU mapped to the new pistons ,cams and injectors do you believe I could probably leave the 182 injectors in the rail and start the car up and everything would be fine ?

You should leave the 182 injectors in it until you have it mapped.

As for first start up - there is loads of conflicting info about. However on a fresh engine build I always:
1 - Buy some cheap shite oil in broadly the right grade 0W or 5W.
2 - unplug coil pack and crank until you have pressure
3 - run engine for a few minutes then drain the oil. Change the filter. That gets most of the assembly lube out and (i always hope) any crap left over from machining and build. No matter what you do, without a clean room there is likely something in there that you don't want
4 - Fill with mineral oil in the correct grade, do initial break in (again lots of conflicting advice) I run the engine for 10-15mins and then bed rings in. One or two full throttle pulls to 2500k in 3rd/4th. After that it gets a very gently life.
5 - At 250 miles ish I change oil and filter to correct grade and type. and progressively increase my mental rev limit, 2-3-4 etc so by 600 miles 4k for short intervals is fine, same with maximum throttle angle.
6 - at 1k I change oil and filter again and drive as normal.

Over kill maybe but the last engine I built is now at 50k without issue and being over cautious here pays off big time. I've only used millers running in oil once on an old RS Turbo build and it didn't seem to hurt, swapped at 250 miles. However in build since this I've just used mineral oil and kept temps down until rings are bedded in. Regular compression checks will show you when rings are bedded however thats a dick on the clio with the standard inlet so I probably wouldn't bother.

Good luck!

 

[gambit]

Hey @Mack182 How is the build coming along?

 

[Mack182]

Hey @gambit its all done and up and running, I left the 182 injectors on and have done about 200-250 miles on the engine so far and all
Seems good and the noise is addictive and I’ve not even put any load on it yet so am excited to see what it makes next month at mapping

defiantly need to mop my head lights now though as they look horrendous

 

[gambit]

Great stuff, its looking good! Should make some good hp with the higher compression from the 197 pistons.