F4R engine head in K4M engine.

[Mlouniksey]

Hi guys, how is in the title i want to know if anyone here can help me with that doubt is the F4R engine head compatible with de K4M engine?
Thank you

 

[Dan@SJM]

No it's not.

 

[Mlouniksey]

Why?

 

[Dan@SJM]

The head is physically bigger than the block.

 

[Mlouniksey]

well yes, but it can be manufactured to fit or is impossible?

 

[Ph1 Tom]

You would be better off working the 1.6 head than trying to make a 2.0 head fit that will never fit.

 

[Chip-mk1]

well yes, but it can be manufactured to fit or is impossible?

I dont like the term "impossible" in engineering terms as few things ultimately are, but basically to fit a f4r head to a k4m you would have:

But head into very hot furance so it turns to metal

use metal to cast a new head


So its about as close to impossible as you are having going to get, its no more suitable for fitting as a head on your engine in that respect than for example 2000 empty coke cans are.

 

[ben_r1]

Why would you want to?

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

A P+P 1.6 head would give the same desired effects (if not better ) than the f4R head? No?

or is it you want the dephaser setup? ( I thought most 1.6 16vs ran them ? )

 

[Mlouniksey]

Well, my idea is if the f4r engine head fits in my k4m engine but just if it was a "plug and play" job i can get more facilities to get "racing parts" like itb´s, exhaust manifolds, with the benefits of the bigger valves and cam shaft being the original.
It wasn´t a god idea?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Just fit the whole F4R, job jobbed.

 

[Mlouniksey]

A lot of people have said that to me but i don´t want to do it, i want to know what the k4m is capable.

 

[Chip-mk1]

but if you swapped the head (not that you can) it wouldnt be a k4m you would be finding out about, it would be a smaller f4r

 

[Mlouniksey]

Yes, but it was a new setup that i never see.
I want to try something new.

 

[warwickstingray]

If you were in motorsport I could understand this but not for a road car. We used to have a 1.4 TU engined Peugeot in the under 1400cc sprint class that ran a 1.6 16v head and throttle bodies to great effect but only because it was all steel and revved high enough to use the worked 1.6 heads flow capacity. It had a ridiculous idle and no driveability. They were from the same engine family unlike your plan.

The F4R is not a high flow design even when worked. Not compared to other 16v heads.

As suggested investigate the flow capacity of the K4M head. Also you have to bear in mind what you want the car for. If you end up with flow that will only be utilised with silly cams you'll get a rubbish road car.

Some people have turbocharged the 1.6 unit and that would be a much better route to try.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

i know you can get motorsport parts for the 1.6 16v already. forged rods + pistons/ and cams.

 

[Mlouniksey]

In the psa cars it is possible i have some friends that have done it, but i want to know if anyone have done it on k4m because like i said for facilitie of buying parts, but if it wont be a possible project i will make in oder way, and now him trying to do in my road car but i want to buy or make a rally car.

The turbo idea i have seem some but i don´t like it.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes, but it was a new setup that i never see.
I want to try something new.

I spent about 10 years doing motoring journalism for modified car mags, and the number of people who end up wasting a load of money to "be different" while creating something that no one else has done just cause its rubbish was huge.

Common example was people wanting to turbo the 8v vauxhall engine instead of just fitting the readily available 16v engine, all they did was spend more money and end up with a worse result, when people used to ask me about it, I used to say if they wanted to be differrent to use the normal engine and grow grass on their roof, still a waste of time but at least then you have a fast car.

Different isnt better when its worse.


That said, its still interesting to see different things, so keep up posted if you do press ahead with the project.

 

[Mlouniksey]

The failure is always there but if we don´t try we don´t know.
I think that way but i don´t started the project buy and trying do all the crazy/stupid ideas that i have. xD
I´m trying to decide a way to go.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

someone once gave me the idea of fitting a K-Series 1.8 lump and putting a worked head on it. would be a good conversion based on the weight, but pain in the arse for other stuff. not to mention.... hefty cooling to stop it poping headgaskets.

 

[Chip-mk1]

someone once gave me the idea of fitting a K-Series 1.8 lump and putting a worked head on it. would be a good conversion based on the weight, but pain in the arse for other stuff. not to mention.... hefty cooling to stop it poping headgaskets.

Cant thin why you would do that instead of a 1.8 honda lump instead which is one of the best 4 cylinder engines ever created and has way better specific power output and way better reliability.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

havent a clue, that sort of stuff doesn't float my boat chip, you should know that

 

[warwickstingray]

Didn't they do a kit to sort the K series? but yeah Honda do have it pretty well covered. Although Vauxhall XE vs Ecotec is an interesting one due to the way the Ecotec head makes torque.

A good start with any engine is to see what a head will flow and how. If the ports can't even serve the standard valve area when worked then it's a dead end really.

Reliability depends on your requirements and budget but fragile engines are tiring to live with.

 

[ben_r1]

Just Nos it, no limitations with flow and supporting mods then. To get +50bhp alternatively on that engine would cost thousands.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Was it not the k4m that was fitted in the S1600's? After a quick search this is what I found on here:

I wrote an email to renault sport some years ago with this questions and got an answer.


"Oliver,


AS enhenced the Renault K4M engine is, to tune it from 110 HP to 220 HP is a big challenge !!


The FIA regulation on the S1600 categorie concerning the engine relies on the following statements:


- single throttle box with a max diameter of 60 mm
- max engine revs : 9000 RPM
- to keep the original valves diameter
- no modification on the oil and water pump
- Compression ratio : The maximum compression ratio is 13/1.
- Valve timing and valve lift : Variable systems are prohibited.
- Variable geometry intake and exhaust manifolds are prohibited
- titanium and magnesium are prohibited.
- The head intake and exhaust holes can be increased in dimension by only 4%


What we have doneon the engine:


- The K4M bloc has not been modified (nor bore and stroke)
- the crankshaft is extracted from the Renault K9K standard engine !!!
- the crankshaft bearings are specific for heavy duty
- the conrods are specific (machined from solid with Renault K9K bearings)
- the pistons (specific shape) are aluminium forged
- Intake and exhaust ducts of the cylinder head have been polished to improve their permeability.
- Of course the camshafts are specific (machined from solid for the rigidity), also the valves and springs.
- Because of the high engine max rev, we have redesign the rockers and hydraulic bumps but keeping the same concept (rocker with bearing and spherical contact between the rocker and the bump; the hydraulic height adjustment of the rocker bump has been cancelled to prevent the bump from pumping up).
- We have particularly paid attention to the acoustic adjustement between the air intake manifold and the exhaust line in order to optimise the compromise of the torque diagram (for tarmac and gravel use)
- the flywheel (steel machined from solid) has been lightened to reduce inertia.
- The ECU (specific to racing) is from Magneti marelli (MF4M)


Because of the modern design of the Renault K4M engine, we are confident in having one of the very best S1600 engine today !!


Sorry, but we don't have any picture of the engine at the moment.
Maybe in a few days.


Best regards,


Jean-Yves HEITZ
Clio Kit Car S1600 project leader.
Renault Sport Technologies."








In other words, put again more sporty cams inside, higher compression ratio, shorter and wider íntake manifold, head work, exhaust with more lower back pressure and you will have it. But for this the engine needs to rev up higher which requests additional modifications from mecanical side as described. But I think such an engine isn´t drivable under public road conditions as you won´t have much torque below 4000 rpm...

Heres a link to the thread: http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?582699-1-6-16v-K4M-power-HELP!!

 

[Mlouniksey]

I will start to get a free exhaust just with a back box for now and them i will think in another modification.
Thank you guys for the help.

 

[warwickstingray]

There's usually some power to be found in a mass produced engine just by building it properly. Expensive though.