F7R vs F7P vs ITB

[Bad-i]

helo to everybody, i need your help.

For the last few months I did faced problems to find good (not broken) engine block for my project.

I have got ITB full set from Jenvey, plus Megane F7R head gaskett (as I have heard that this is better for ITB).

Now we got to the point where 3 blocks of F7R Williams engines were broken (mikro but still risky to use it).

I have heard that the best option to build such engine is to use Williams F7R engine block, megane coupe F7R head gaskett, and jenvey kit for ITB.

Today I bought Megane engine block as the ones from Williams are almost not possible to get. Additionaly one guy told me that this is even better because I would not be able to use Williams block with megane head because they are not good together (megane's head gaskett would not fit into williams block).

On the other hand, this person informed me that I could use williams head into megane's block (it works in the opposite way).

Can some one who knows this subject let me know, what is the best combination for building such engine. From Angel and Andy I know that the best is to have Williams block + megane's head (but today I have heard that this will not work)

Please help as I enter to the final stage

 

[BenR]

When you say head gasket, i assume you mean just the head?

Either can be fitted to either block, and in stock trims you wont notice a diff between either block.

If you've got a jenvey kit for the megane head, then you've pretty much had that decision made for you. Just slap it all onto the megane engine complete.

 

[Bad-i]

When you say head gasket, i assume you mean just the head?

Either can be fitted to either block, and in stock trims you wont notice a diff between either block.

If you've got a jenvey kit for the megane head, then you've pretty much had that decision made for you. Just slap it all onto the megane engine complete.

BenR, thanks for the answet but:

I have heard that oil chanels (I don't know how you call them) are different and that is why you can use williams's head gasket in megane's block but you cannot use megane's head gasket in williams's block (that was my concern)

Second thing, I got a jenvey kit for megane head because there is not Jenvey kit for williams head. Additionaly Andy and Angel informed me that this is the best head for their kit. Simply there was no option to have ITB set for williams engine.

Additionaly I have woessner pistons, cat cams pulleys and camshafts.... Does it make sens to use conrods from valver (have heard that they are much stronger then the ones from f7R in megane)

 

[BenR]

If your taking the engine apart for forged pistons, i'd just stump up and fit forged rods, it seems pointless to limit the engines potential by running oem rods.

The megane setup is good, but you will need to have the head modified to a good level as it is pretty poor in stock trim.

The only diff on the megane/williams head gasket, or that I can remember, is that the oil return ways are differently shaped bu location is similar enough, and that there is an extra water return on the megane head near the thermostat end.

If your using a willy block then use a willy HG, a megane block then a megane HG.

 

[Bad-i]

If your taking the engine apart for forged pistons, i'd just stump up and fit forged rods, it seems pointless to limit the engines potential by running oem rods.

The megane setup is good, but you will need to have the head modified to a good level as it is pretty poor in stock trim.

The only diff on the megane/williams head gasket, or that I can remember, is that the oil return ways are differently shaped bu location is similar enough, and that there is an extra water return on the megane head near the thermostat end.

If your using a willy block then use a willy HG, a megane block then a megane HG.

Ok that is clear enough for me (now I am happy)

1. I have like 3 engines apart now, would love to use forged rods but I have not budget at this moment. My goal is to put forget rods, better camshafts (the ones for ITB - hard core ones), and mechanical followers - but this will probably hapens in 2009

2. my megane's head is alrady well preapared, so I am ready with this

3. if there is not big differences then I am very happy

4. I will use megane block with megane HG - just because I have it. But my goal was to get as much as possible from this engine and that is why I have asked what is the best combination. Additionaly from this what I remember Jenvey didn't have flange for willam's head.

 

[BenR]

Jenvey dont have one for the williams, we have to make our own billet manifold.

 

[Bad-i]

so summarizing, such engine:

F7R block from megane
F7R head from megane
full set of Jenvery ITB
catsams pulleys and camshafts
woessner forged pistons (gr.A)
devil exaust
vems set

should be ok??

 

[BenR]

yea, will work fine.

That list will bolt up and run, assuming you have taken care of the clearane required to run bodies etc.

 

[Bad-i]

assuming you have taken care of the clearane required to run bodies etc.

??

 

[BexKTR]

we will have a manifold completed for the williams head next week as we are currently putting together an ITB kit for a customer we have in at the mo.

 

[Fighter]

assuming you have taken care of the clearane required to run bodies etc.

??

Clearance

 

[BenR]

yes, clearance sorry.

 

[EVOgone]

Sounds like EvoUKs old engine bits......

Didnt you (Ben) build this engine and it never ran right (cam timing was wrong and the compressions where not great........

 

[Summeh]

just out of interest Bad-i, which megane engine is it? 710 or 714?

 

[BenR]

Sounds like EvoUKs old engine bits......

Didnt you (Ben) build this engine and it never ran right (cam timing was wrong and the compressions where not great........

Adrians?

It was a stock block with some headwork and cams so I cant really be overly responsable for the condition of the block. It ran perfectly fine on the stock inlet manfiold (184bhp iirc), but he added bodies himself and only gained a tiny amount of power. Why? I dont know, I never saw it since it was running on the stock inlet manfold, but when I spoke to him whilst he was running it in that state on track, he said it was going good.

Compression values when using wilder cams and retaining the stock CR will always belower than stock due to valve timing events.

I didnt know he sold all his ITB bits.

 

[EVOgone]

Sounds like EvoUKs old engine bits......

Didnt you (Ben) build this engine and it never ran right (cam timing was wrong and the compressions where not great........

Adrians?

It was a stock block with some headwork and cams so I cant really be overly responsable for the condition of the block. It ran perfectly fine on the stock inlet manfiold (184bhp iirc), but he added bodies himself and only gained a tiny amount of power. Why? I dont know, I never saw it since it was running on the stock inlet manfold, but when I spoke to him whilst he was running it in that state on track, he said it was going good.

Compression values when using wilder cams and retaining the stock CR will always belower than stock due to valve timing events.

I didnt know he sold all his ITB bits.

So thats a yes then......dumped all the oil on the rollers and wouldnt run properly after that.

Think Stan at APD sorted it out in the end, cam timing was well off and a few other bits. Dont know what it put out after it was done but then the stan bought the car and sold the engine i guess he wasnt happy with it.

 

[Bad-i]

just out of interest Bad-i, which megane engine is it? 710 or 714?

it would be 710

what do you mean by clearence?? space for air hornes?

 

[Bad-i]

do you have any suggestions for assembiling such engine? what should be done in addition to avoid any technical issues ?

 

[BenR]

So thats a yes then......dumped all the oil on the rollers and wouldnt run properly after that.

Think Stan at APD sorted it out in the end, cam timing was well off and a few other bits. Dont know what it put out after it was done but then the stan bought the car and sold the engine i guess he wasnt happy with it.

I had heard of zero issues from Adrian until he attempted to fit bodies, especially regarding oil loss. I have only heard of issues since he had attempted to fit bodies and I feel like your simply trying the old 'you touched it last' approach.

If the engine was fubar'd then surely just selling it on wasnt such an appropriate solution.

 

[BenR]

just out of interest Bad-i, which megane engine is it? 710 or 714?

it would be 710

what do you mean by clearence?? space for air hornes?

Yes, clearance around the air horns for a proper sized air filter. You wont be able to fit that with the stock radiator in place and intake air temps will be astronomical and severely affect power output and reliability.

 

[BenR]

do you have any suggestions for assembiling such engine? what should be done in addition to avoid any technical issues ?

People write books on this subject.

 

[Bad-i]

just out of interest Bad-i, which megane engine is it? 710 or 714?

is there any difference between 710 and 714 ??

I have got something like this:



sorry for the quality but this is only pic i have now. When I look at it is seems to be a little different from F7P

 

[Bad-i]

I have just got two answers from people that has built such engine with different information.

Any idea why it should be better to use megane's head in williams's block ?

What could be the difference in runing such setup?

 

[BenR]

There is no running difference.

The 714 has a chain driven oil pump setup like the F4R, rather than belt driven like the williams.

I really wouldnt worry about choosing either, personally i'd run the megane head with the megane block just to keep things simple.

 

[Bad-i]

well the case is that I can sell now megane's engine with profit. Williams's block was very cheap let say

So if there is no difference, why not to chose williams head (what would be easier with megane's block? )

 

[BenR]

There is no difference between the megane and willy block when you are running them, using the williams head is however an entirely different prospect.

And for the 10th time, running a megane head with a megane block would be the easiest and simplest solution as they both came out of the same car.

 

[Bad-i]

engines you did put together had williams or megane's head?

 

[Laine_16v]

Just to clear up some random comments ive just read.

I bought Adrians old engine and ITB setup, its currently in pieces. The cam timing was quite a way out (but now fixed) and there are some quite nasty steps in inlet tract that i understand are quite determental to performance that will be sorted.

The bottom end was sold and is now in someone elses car, and i am using my old bottom end which is being reuiblt with Forged rods and JE pistons, so watch this space

I believe when adrian had it, it made 191bph after it was done (there is a vid on youtube of it), but the BE isnt my problem now as its sold!


Also note that the map on it is cr@p! if you jab the throttle at just about any point it spluttered a lot, aparently the fuel inrichement map was rubbish. And its awful from cold too due to a poor cold start map.

Obviously its going to be remapped!

And the head was rebuilt by BenR i believe, (am still waiting to have the receipts through). But its all being built up at Craigs (APD)

 

[Laine_16v]

Sounds like EvoUKs old engine bits......

Didnt you (Ben) build this engine and it never ran right (cam timing was wrong and the compressions where not great........

Cam timing was wrong, but after it was fixed the bottom end held good compression and leakage values (all cyls under 10% leakage)

 

[Laine_16v]

Adrians?

It was a stock block with some headwork and cams so I cant really be overly responsable for the condition of the block. It ran perfectly fine on the stock inlet manfiold (184bhp iirc), but he added bodies himself and only gained a tiny amount of power. Why? I dont know, I never saw it since it was running on the stock inlet manfold, but when I spoke to him whilst he was running it in that state on track, he said it was going good.

Compression values when using wilder cams and retaining the stock CR will always belower than stock due to valve timing events.

I didnt know he sold all his ITB bits.

So thats a yes then......dumped all the oil on the rollers and wouldnt run properly after that.

Think Stan at APD sorted it out in the end, cam timing was well off and a few other bits. Dont know what it put out after it was done but then the stan bought the car and sold the engine i guess he wasnt happy with it.

No he bought the car as an opportunity to use the cup car as a demo car to advertise his tuning business (put a monster engine in of his own) and slap stickers on it, the engine was never going to stay in it. Its a dam cool car to drive

 

[Bad-i]

I believe when adrian had it, it made 191bph after it was done (there is a vid on youtube of it)

well is that a lot ?? sorry for that question but we got 193 bhp in williams engine without ITB.

 

[Laine_16v]

I believe when adrian had it, it made 191bph after it was done (there is a vid on youtube of it)

well is that a lot ?? sorry for that question but we got 193 bhp in williams engine without ITB.

Not really, but i intend to have a bit more once its all rebuilt.

YOu dont buy ITB's for peak horsepower bud, its so much better on a lot of levels.

 

[2 live]

I have just got two answers from people that has built such engine with different information.

Any idea why it should be better to use megane's head in williams's block ?

What could be the difference in runing such setup?

iv been running a williams head on a megane block for years. never had any issues with it. in fact it took the so called tuners^^^^^^^ years to build a quicker engine.

the megane head willbe better suited to the bodies, mainly due to port shape, the williams inlet ports being more oval ish so the manifold will have a lot of change in port shape, which could ultimately disrupt slightly the air flow/atomisation thru it. there will be less of this with the meg head.


chadil do a manifold for the williams head, but they quite poor, the 1s iv seen, and could do with a bit of fettling prior to fitment.

 

[Bad-i]

well is that a lot ?? sorry for that question but we got 193 bhp in williams engine without ITB.

Not really, but i intend to have a bit more once its all rebuilt.

YOu dont buy ITB's for peak horsepower bud, its so much better on a lot of levels.

I do understand your point, although I am looking for about 220 at least in my project. As I already wrote, we got 193 with cat cams camshafts, and forged pistons from woessner and this was before mapping. I do believe that with forged pistons and forged rods you can get over 200 without ITB.

 

[stan*]

Both heads allow for about 180bhp, with stock engines + ITB's.

The rumours of megane heads being "better for ITB's" are just that, ones which I believe only came about due to the fact its easier to get a DCOE manifold for the megane engine. The megane head has better theoretical attributes, but as std these dont transpire as beneficial in practice.

Adrians was down on power due to accumaltive error----cam timing+very poorly matched inlet manifold+too short an induction length.

And yes, to confirm there was nothing wrong with the engine at all (mechanically speaking), it was surplus to my requirments thats all.

 

[2 live]

so the bigger valves would be of no gain whatsoever?? and the smoother transition from port shape to body shape??

 

[stan*]

The gain in inlet flow from the larger valve, is more than off-set by the nasty bowl profile due to the cutting operation....hence me saying when the heads are in std form. i.e when you re-work the bowl, you see the gains.
Theoretically the megane intake port enters the chamber centrally. I think is the best attribute of it.

What exactly do you mean by "smoother transition"? smoother implies surface roughness, which isnt an issue on either.
If you mean most efficient in terms of energy loss due to profile change, I dont know, as I havnt tested them....
Just because there is a more aggressive profile change on the williams inlet, doesnt mean its worse? Its done over sufficient enough length to not interupt laminar flow.
Also both of them going from say 45mm into their corresponding ports, the williams has more volume and larger surface area at the "transitiion" area and port mouth...in theory this is more likely to aid intake flow, as a larger depression is caused in this area thereofore creating a larger innertia filling effect.

This is all in theory, as said I havnt personally tested the manifold as a specific area of loss/gain...this would be quite hard to do, as how would you go about isolating the gain or loss to the manifold alone as one part of a complete intake system i.e. how do you know the gain/loss isnt attributed to the valve, port, manifold or combination of all three?

 

[2 live]

spend a lot of time doing it 1 bit at a time......


go on u know u want to....let me know the results wen u done lol.


btw...smoother transition doesnt mean surface roughness. means going from (====) to O or (==) to O

 

[stan*]

point being theres nothing smooth or not smooth about either...

as for testing, you cant isolate the manifold as a point of potential gain or loss is what im saying, as the heads are different. If the heads were the same, and we were talking about two different designs of manifold, then yeah that would be easy lol
As it isnt, you can only treat them as a package.

Anyway why are you so defensive of the megane head, thought we were both hardened willy lovers?!

 

[2 live]

lol...not defending the megane head, just thort the transition from round to almost round would be more efficient than round to nowhere near round lol.

aiding flow rather than hindering it


as u say tho, legnths etc could more tha n overcome this

to test would be quite easy tho, same b/e run a willy head/mani combo, then whip the head off n run a meg head/mani combo same map/cams etc. both std heads.