FBW Throttle Bodies

[clio_il]

Hello all. Been lurking around here for some time. Recently became a member
Anyway I would like to start a discussion, hopefully others will follow.
I own a 2003 Clio 172. It has the FBW throttle. Ive noticed that all the throttle bodies kits for sale REQUIRE the use of a standalone computer and conversion to cable operated throttle. I refuse to believe this is true. There is just no way that a throttle can not be made to work with a motor if it works with a cable, the physical action is the same - push/pull to move a connected part, the only difference is with cable we do the push/pull with our foot, and with electronic the motor does it for us depending on the throttle pedal position.
Im no expert (yet) but I fail to see why it would not be feasibly possible to use the motor from the stock throttle to fit onto an aftermarket throttle body, unless there are size issues. And if ppl like RSTuner can work with the stock FBW throttle then no reason why the same ppl couldnt work with a similair configuration for throttle control.
If I had the money I would defiently persue this - order a jenvey kit, or better yet, a DTH kit from GDi, and try to fit the motor so that it will operate the butterfly.
The stock ECU, atleast for me, is important to keep. I live in a country where no one can tune an aftermarket ecu properly, and i feel comfortable in the hands of RSTuner even if it is overseas.
Id like to hear opinions about this, and even perhaps (positive thinking) fellow annoyed mkII 172 (with FBW) owners like me who are frustrated from the fact that in order to get real N/A power they'd have to switch the ECU.
This just doesnt makes sense! Im sure there are enough ppl worldwide who would appreciate the existence of an aftermarket FBW throttle kit (prefrebly DTH, but shouldnt matter, ill take whatever is possible)...

 

[ditz]

its the fact that the stock ecu calculates its load via manifold pressure, which is ok.. untill you start messing with individual bodies with no forum of plenham chamber

you aint gonna have an awful lot of manifold pressure seen as you can see the valves looking down the throats of the bodies

 

[clio_il]

its the fact that the stock ecu calculates its load via manifold pressure, which is ok.. untill you start messing with individual bodies with no forum of plenham chamber

you aint gonna have an awful lot of manifold pressure seen as you can see the valves looking down the throats of the bodies

Is the mkII phase1 ECU off the 172 (uses cable throttle) also uses the manifold pressure (im assuming u mean MAP?) to determine load?

 

[Sean.]

running ITB's can be done with Fly by wire. was litterally chatting to John from GMC motorsport about this the other day, says he has new software that allows this! But im sure it involves standalone.

 

[ditz]

its the fact that the stock ecu calculates its load via manifold pressure, which is ok.. untill you start messing with individual bodies with no forum of plenham chamber

you aint gonna have an awful lot of manifold pressure seen as you can see the valves looking down the throats of the bodies

Is the mkII phase1 ECU off the 172 (uses cable throttle) also uses the manifold pressure (im assuming u mean MAP?) to determine load?

yes, and yes

 

[clio_il]

running ITB's can be done with Fly by wire. was litterally chatting to John from GMC motorsport about this the other day, says he has new software that allows this! But im sure it involves standalone.

On GMC motorsport there is no mention of any clio parts.
What make is the ITB FBW?

 

[Laura]

i know one company is currently working on it.. but its a way off yet

 

[BenR]

Can it be done physically, sure......with a fair bit of work.

Can it be managed on the stock ECU......certainly.

Will anybody attempt it?....unlikely.

It takes alot of effort and funds to develop things, and development time is effectively lost time and money. When we all have overheads to cover, to give up labour hours and spend cashflow is not a very tempting prospect. We are not all huge companies, infact there are no really HUGE tuning companies that can afford to do what they want.

Maybe if 10 customers paid upfront it would cover development costs.

The other side of things is that ITB's on a speed density setup just dont run nice, the majority of the map is wasted and the fueling curve becomes very steep.

We use standalone because its quick, easy and the best all round solution. I dont even see how you could, for example, expect to rely on tuning via an RStuner.

 

[BenR]

running ITB's can be done with Fly by wire. was litterally chatting to John from GMC motorsport about this the other day, says he has new software that allows this! But im sure it involves standalone.

On GMC motorsport there is no mention of any clio parts.
What make is the ITB FBW?

I dont know of any FBW ITB setups, and its defeating your original question to retrofit FWB ITB's with a new standalone that can manage FBW throttles. Cost would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher than just doing ITB's the traditional route, and you'd still have to have someone able to deal with standalone ecu's in your country.

 

[clio_il]

Can it be done physically, sure......with a fair bit of work.

Can it be managed on the stock ECU......certainly.

Will anybody attempt it?....unlikely.

It takes alot of effort and funds to develop things, and development time is effectively lost time and money. When we all have overheads to cover, to give up labour hours and spend cashflow is not a very tempting prospect. We are not all huge companies, infact there are no really HUGE tuning companies that can afford to do what they want.

Maybe if 10 customers paid upfront it would cover development costs.

What would be a reasonable amount of money for developing this?

The other side of things is that ITB's on a speed density setup just dont run nice, the majority of the map is wasted and the fueling curve becomes very steep. We use standalone because its quick, easy and the best all round solution.

Is it a feasible option for some1 to do it on their own with the technical help of a tuner like urself via correspondance? My main problem is the lack of a good (or even OK) aftermarket ECU tuner/programmer, unless I go motec but then the whole system including tuning would cost more then the car itself.

I dont even see how you could, for example, expect to rely on tuning via an RStuner.

I dont expect, that was just a name thrown in...

i know one company is currently working on it.. but its a way off yet

it would really be a bummer if I go for an omex ecu and ***** make throttle bodies and then 2 monthes later a company will introduce a new product that runs ITB's with the stock ECU and have it run good..........

Dont know really what to do, as I do want more power... Turbo kit from MB Car Performance is nice, but it is illegal here (Israel) to put turbo on a non-turbo car, unless its completly stealth, which I doubt...
on the other hand the best ECU and the best throttle bodies wouldnt give me anything without a good mapping......

 

[Laura]

im sure it would be possible for a tuner to sell you the ITB kit along with a "pre mapped" standalone ECU for you to wire in yourself

 

[BenR]

Money? Probably in the region of 5-7k for a proper, quality solution........people will probably yell scandal, but its not cheap testing things, breaking things and redesigning things.

Could someone do it themselves? If they could they wouldnt have to ask. And i doubt any tuner would really give up as much time as would be required to walk someone through it.

I know you dont expect the RSTuner to do so, thats why i said 'for example'.

 

[clio_il]

Money? Probably in the region of 5-7k for a proper, quality solution........people will probably yell scandal, but its not cheap testing things, breaking things and redesigning things.

If I gather the money (7K at least) I will send em ur way...

Could someone do it themselves? If they could they wouldnt have to ask. And i doubt any tuner would really give up as much time as would be required to walk someone through it.

Im talking bout fitting the ITB's and ECU...

im sure it would be possible for a tuner to sell you the ITB kit along with a "pre mapped" standalone ECU for you to wire in yourself

how hard is it to wire the ecu in?

 

[Fred@BTM]

M3/M5's anyone??? ITB's and FBW

 

[BenR]

Well, its still a mech throttle setup with an electronic actuator and they run a MASS based setup due to the issues with ITB's and speed density.

 

[TheJesus]

Money? Probably in the region of 5-7k for a proper, quality solution........people will probably yell scandal, but its not cheap testing things, breaking things and redesigning things.

Could someone do it themselves? If they could they wouldnt have to ask. And i doubt any tuner would really give up as much time as would be required to walk someone through it.

what about the safety aspect too? it would have to go through some rigerous safety tests incase the ECU cotrolling the FBW fails and kills someone... too much liability at stake to even bother with.

 

[BenR]

I'm referring to using the stock ECU, not a standalone.......as per his request.

And it was an example, like my first post indicated........not a very likely chance anybody would take it on without some serious profit margins.

 

[fmp_]

how would the car drive?

as i thought one of the advantages of the cable ITB setup is improved throttle response.

 

[TheJesus]

I'm referring to using the stock ECU, not a standalone.......as per his request.

And it was an example, like my first post indicated........not a very likely chance anybody would take it on without some serious profit margins.

aah right, if the stock ecu is capable of running bodies fbw shouldnt be a problem?

and yeah, dont think we'll see it in a hurry, there's already a perfectly good solution thats cheaper... ie cable lol

 

[BenR]

how would the car drive?

as i thought one of the advantages of the cable ITB setup is improved throttle response.

You can keep throttle response linear with FWB, just loose the mechanical feel.

OEM installs have slower peak opening and closing to keep issues such as accel fueling and emissions under control.