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group n spring rates?
- Thread starter sam JFM
- Start date
172 Rally Car
Not at the moment mate - might pop down for a watch.
That doesnt give spring rates as far as i can tell..
Mg cup has sent me the manual via dropbox but thanks for the offer! (pity i cant read french!)
p@blo
ClioSport Club Member
Clio/A3
On the right, stick your readers on Sam... 
Assuming they're kg/mm am guessing that's:
F:
5.5kg/mm = ~308lb/in = ~54N/mm (T) (A)
6kg/mm = ~336lb/in = ~59N/mm (A)
6.5kg/mm = ~364lb/in = ~64N/mm (A)
R:
4kg/mm = ~224lb/in = ~39N/mm (T)
5.1kg/mm =~286lb/in = ~50N/mm (T)
5.5kg/mm = ~308lb/in = ~54N/mm (A)
6kg/mm = ~336lb/in = ~59N/mm (A)
6.5kg/mm = ~364lb/in = ~64N/mm (A)
Any chance you could pm me the link to the dropbox file please?
Ta.
Assuming they're kg/mm am guessing that's:
F:
5.5kg/mm = ~308lb/in = ~54N/mm (T) (A)
6kg/mm = ~336lb/in = ~59N/mm (A)
6.5kg/mm = ~364lb/in = ~64N/mm (A)
R:
4kg/mm = ~224lb/in = ~39N/mm (T)
5.1kg/mm =~286lb/in = ~50N/mm (T)
5.5kg/mm = ~308lb/in = ~54N/mm (A)
6kg/mm = ~336lb/in = ~59N/mm (A)
6.5kg/mm = ~364lb/in = ~64N/mm (A)
Any chance you could pm me the link to the dropbox file please?
Ta.
172 Rally Car
On the right, stick your readers on Sam...
Assuming they're kg/mm am guessing that's:
F:
5.5kg/mm = ~308lb/in = ~54N/mm (T) (A)
6kg/mm = ~336lb/in = ~59N/mm (A)
6.5kg/mm = ~364lb/in = ~64N/mm (A)
R:
4kg/mm = ~224lb/in = ~39N/mm (T)
5.1kg/mm =~286lb/in = ~50N/mm (T)
5.5kg/mm = ~308lb/in = ~54N/mm (A)
6kg/mm = ~336lb/in = ~59N/mm (A)
6.5kg/mm = ~364lb/in = ~64N/mm (A)
Any chance you could pm me the link to the dropbox file please?
Ta.
Ahhh you clever little bunny! kg/mm i would never have thought about that!
172 rag
Check n8 it is in kg/mm
p@blo
ClioSport Club Member
Clio/A3
They're soft compared to the Clio 2 Cup running S2Bs
F 18kg/mm = 1008lb/in = 176.8N/mm
R 7kg/mm = 393lb/in = 68.7N/mm (bear in mind different spring positioning/leverage)
George - what's the document you're referring to? Dropbox link Sam sent is just the parts listings. Do you have a copy of the Groupe N workshop manual?
F 18kg/mm = 1008lb/in = 176.8N/mm
R 7kg/mm = 393lb/in = 68.7N/mm (bear in mind different spring positioning/leverage)
George - what's the document you're referring to? Dropbox link Sam sent is just the parts listings. Do you have a copy of the Groupe N workshop manual?
172 rag
Hi Pablo
I am waiting a lazy frend of mine to scan it and send it to me along with the FIA homologation.
The illustrations above (parts manual) give these spring rates. Usually they are just a baseline.. we ve seen it plenty of times with the 206 cup etc.
When I ll get the docs will distribute them, since its very usefull knoweledge and should be shared.
I am waiting a lazy frend of mine to scan it and send it to me along with the FIA homologation.
The illustrations above (parts manual) give these spring rates. Usually they are just a baseline.. we ve seen it plenty of times with the 206 cup etc.
When I ll get the docs will distribute them, since its very usefull knoweledge and should be shared.
I'd say they were reasonable for a tarmac rally car of the clio's weight.
Any chance one of you guys could PM me the drop box link thanks.
They're soft compared to the Clio 2 Cup running S2Bs
F 18kg/mm = 1008lb/in = 176.8N/mm
R 7kg/mm = 393lb/in = 68.7N/mm (bear in mind different spring positioning/leverage)
George - what's the document you're referring to? Dropbox link Sam sent is just the parts listings. Do you have a copy of the Groupe N workshop manual?
Is that cup racer rates Paul?
p@blo
ClioSport Club Member
Clio/A3
Yes mate - although the last evo in 2006 had the yellow dampers with the NS dual rate rear spring. Both winds are marginally thinner dia - unsure of the rates as the writing has worn off
Yes mate - although the last evo in 2006 had the yellow dampers with the NS dual rate rear spring. Both winds are marginally thinner dia - unsure of the rates as the writing has worn off
Cheers, my springs are still marked but I always forget to have a look. I just know they are stupidly stiff. Have you tried playing about spring poundages on the fixed rate dampers?
Were the last evo shocks not softer as well, for running on the Nurburgring or something.
NS??
p@blo
ClioSport Club Member
Clio/A3
No complaints so far Sam, just waiting on the other strut casings so i can run them with the laguna hubs.
You could fit the b14 inserts into cup racer struts but they are much too soft for a race car in spring and damping, a guy on here (mike iirc) uses that on his cup racer for rallying.
p@blo
ClioSport Club Member
Clio/A3
Three rears yep, no idea why the different colours. I've only got the black ones that are apparently the firmest.
Don't think the fronts were ever changed - never seen anything to suggest otherwise. Some front springs were red instead of black, but otherwise the same rate afaik.
p@blo
ClioSport Club Member
Clio/A3
Down to personal preference but that's less than half of what I'm currently running up front Sam. Have just under what you have on the rear but with a whiteline arb - mainly to account for my lack of talent and to make it a little more forgiving for the time being.
Would only really suggest upping it incrementally and see how it feels. Maybe 80-90N initially?
172 Rally Car
Down to personal preference but that's less than half of what I'm currently running up front Sam. Have just under what you have on the rear but with a whiteline arb - mainly to account for my lack of talent and to make it a little more forgiving for the time being.
Would only really suggest upping it incrementally and see how it feels. Maybe 80-90N initially?
In an ideal world i would do but springs are a fortune! and as im getting the shocks serviced i can get them valved to suit
What are you running? i have rear springs in the standard position so im not sure how that effects the comparison
p@blo
ClioSport Club Member
Clio/A3
A bit over double your existing rate up front & around 3/4 on the rear with AST dampers. Thinking was to try and limit excessive body roll and the problems that brings. Be interesting to compare stiffer rear rates without the ARb next year.
You could presumably measure up and get an approximate value for difference in leverage on the two spring platform locations. It'd be interesting to get a basic feel for the difference in spring resistance/velocity ratio on the two locations.
Might be worth having a search - surely someone must have worked it out already?
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
If he's on ast's they will be coilover rear as well so it's a 1:1 ratio sam.
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
Yes mate pretty much. When I calculated it ages ago I think the ratio was something like 1.7:1 as well.Yes that's right
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
What do you have currently and what are you using the car for? Is it purely Tarmac events or track work?
So a 185lbs coil over rear is = 315lbs normal position.....thats what my Reiger tarmac suspension is.
172 Rally Car
What are your fronts? i suppose you can run softer springs due to the fancy canister dampers?
p@blo
ClioSport Club Member
Clio/A3
Isn't harsh no Sam, currently quite forgiving - looking to experiment with marginally firmer rates next year minus the arb to see how it compares.
Just using some approx values I got pretty much 2:1 aswell assuming motion ratio for the inboard location of around 1.4 & the outboard as 0.98 (is just beyond the stub axle). That would equate to wheel rates of ~204lb using the beam platform compared to ~416lb on the outboard location using a 400lb spring.
Not convinced I've run the numbers right though. Northloop, can you confirm mate?
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
I'd be very tempted to up the rate of your fronts Sam. Mine has 330lb fronts (kw v2's) and they're too soft so the front falls over itself a bit really. Something like a 400-450 front and a 500-550 rear would be what I'd try.
yes mate using a ratio of 1.7:1 and about 370 if you go 2:1, so a reasonable jump.
Which numbers are you referring to mate? The motion ratio calcs or the spring poundage? I did my measuring ages ago and have it all written down somewhere so I'll have to try and find it, but for some reason the ratio of 1.7(ish):1 rings a bell. I eventually managed to work out what the rate of my rear springs were (kw v2's) taking known weights that were already there and adding a known weight and measuring deflection. Needed carol vorderman for the amount of maths involved though! Lol! When I eventually got the springs tested for their rates I was pretty much bang on too (allegedly a variable rate spring on kw's - er no they ain't! Well not until get them nearly fully compressed)
Front are 360ish or 60NM/mm - does feel harsh at all infact im thinking of going stiffer at the rear.
Interesting really if fancy damper allow you to run stiffer and get more compliance or run softer and more control???
