Have I bitten off more than I can chew? (new 172/dephaser content!)

[Brendan2234]

Hey everyone! Pleased to finally be joining the RS fold, a bit of background on me.
I'm a 28 year old ex mechanic, served out my apprenticeship from age 17-20 in several garages, a used car dealership and a German/VAG specialist. Since then I've been in and out of the motor trade and constantly doing foreigners, but changed career a few years back after deciding the motor trade wasn't for me. I've always had Saxo VTS's and 106 GTIs, and had an Impreza Turbo for a few years, but I've had a challenging year so far and have ended up back in with the parents with very little disposable income, so when looking for a cheap but fun runaround a 172 was the obvious choice.

This is the car I've won on Ebay, but not collected yet.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-C...e6o8P2kGfn919Rnp5AFIE%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


I'd heard that cambelts on these were quite complex and require an expensive dephaser pulley to be replaced as well, but I priced up the kit as being around £250-300, so decided I could afford to bid £600 for the car and after a weekends work hopefully still be quids in and with the added peace of mind of knowing the belt situation was taken care of. I mean, I've probably done dozens of cambelts on other vehicles by now, how hard can it be?

Hmm, pretty hard, it turns out, after having a read of the cambelt problems thread. I know this is a much discussed topic here but I also know there's a few very knowledgeable technicians on the boards, so I thought it was time to turn to the forums for your help, opinions and perhaps mockery for being such an idiot!

I think I've got a good local specialist in Reno-Tech in North Wales, who quote £600 all in with a dephaser pulley change for the 172, so that's always a possibility. However I'm not going to lie, it's going to sting a bit buying a £580 car and then landing a £600 bill straight away, especially when it's for a job with a bit of care and patience and the right tools I know I can do myself.

Cost wise, a genuine cambelt kit and dephaser pulley is going to be circa £200, I'd want to change the WP, coolant and aux belt at the same time, so I think I'd be looking at £250-300 parts cost.

Which brings me on to the tools, am I right in thinking that this set from RPD is comprehensive and includes everything I need?
http://www.renaultpartsdirect.co.uk/product/renault-clio-172-182-197-cam-belt-fitting-tool-kit-f4r/

There are cheaper sets on Ebay (£75) that claim to have everything required but I'd rather get decent quality tools and sell them on afterwards than buy something that will only work once before it bends, and potentially leave me with suspect timing! Unless anyone can vouch for a cheaper set of tools that work anywhere?

Anyway, I think that's all from me for now, thanks for reading if you got this far and looking forward to your suggestions. Rest assured if I do decide to go ahead and have a crack at it myself I'll pay for the guide and any other resources I can, and keep everyone updated along the way!

 

[Chrisgti6]

Buy the genuine tools and follow the guide and you'll be fine.

Do it yourself for the price you've paid for the car, not worth spending a fortune getting it done when you have the knowledge to do it yourself in my opinion.

 

[Typhoon]

I wouldn't eat dephasers mate.

 

[STEVE.M]

Lovely looking car.
Invest 3K in it and it will give more fun than anything you could buy new for £22k, and instantly loose £4K.

 

[Brendan2234]

Yeah that was my thinking, genuine parts and tools and lots of reading and research and hopefully I won't go wrong! To be honest I'm not averse to just taking the engine out to do it, I've got a home workshop, hoists and cranes and it would mean I could split the engine and box and fit a new clutch at the same time, then there'd be nothing major left to change for quite some time!

Every car I've had I've spent hundreds modifying and lost money when I came to sell it, so I'm going to try and excercise some self control and keep this standard for now. An induction kit, exhaust and some lowering springs might find their way on there fairly soon however... :smilingimp:

 

[bloke]

only floating pulleys, not as bad as most people make out.

 

[Jonz]

You'll be fine, it's easier than most cars imo. The only difficulty is access that renault has left to some bolts should be a crime, but if you're lifting the engine out then no worries. Though when you add up the cost of parts + the locking tools you only end up saving just over £100.

 

[Chrisgti6]

The tools always sell on again easily enough though, so he'll make most of that money back. That's how I did the belts on my 197.

 

[Budgie]

Yep, buy the tools second hand off here. Not that tough a job.

 

[Brendan2234]

Well I've said I'll definitely have the car and am collecting it tomorrow, so it's time to get a shopping list together!
I've looked through all the service history and can't find any mention of a clutch replacement, so for how tight the access is in the engine bay if it's on its original clutch I think I may as well lift the engine and box out to do the lot. As a minimum I want to do:

Cambelt, pulleys and tensioner
Dephaser pulley
Auxiliary belt
Waterpump & Coolant
Oil & filter
Spark plugs, inc re-sealing cam covers as I think there might be a slight weep from one of them.

Is there anything I've missed that I should be doing at the same time? I've paid up as a Cliosport member so I can read through all the guides, but until it's activated I'm not sure what else I should be changing. I've heard mention of cam seals and core plugs, do I need these? Should I change crank oil seals as I'll have both ends relatively exposed?

And where's the best place to get all the parts from, I was just going to order the lot from Renault Parts Direct as they advertise on the board here, unless anyone has any better suggestions? Do club members get any discount with RPD at all?

 

[Jonz]

How many miles has it done? All depends on how much money you want to spend! Unless the dephaser is making the car sound like a diesel, you don't really need to change it. Water pumps seem to last forever and are driven by the aux belt so easy enough to change and I'm nearing on 150k miles on the original renault clutch.

 

[Brendan2234]

The dephaser is quiet when cold but it is pretty rattly when warmed up, has anyone ever had one let go or do they just get noisier and throw the timing out eventually?
I'd assumed the WP was cambelt driven as that's more common but if it's aux belt driven as you say, it'd be quite easy to change if it needed it in future. I might have a listen to it with the car running and see what it sounds like then make my mind up then.

And that's really good going from a clutch! Starting to rethink my decision to take the engine out now, perhaps I should save myself some money and effort and just do the belts, pulleys and dephaser for now.

 

[bloke]

£40 for a pump, you'd be daft not to change it while the engine is out.

 

[Ads29]

Water pumpkins aux driven but is partially covered by the cambelt from memory, whilst I'm sure it could be changed on its own is itnreallybwprth the hassle when as others have said it's circa £40 for a new one?

The cam seals will also need to be changed as they will get damaged when being removed to time up the cams, however any good cambelt kit shiuld come with a pair of these anyway.

I've done a few of these belts now and can whole heartedly say they're 100% easier to do with the engine out, as previously mentioned with the engine in situ access is very limited and you'll find yourself forever lifting and loweringbthe engine to gain access to various bolts. With the engine out you don't have any of these worries obviously


Ads

 

[Brendan2234]

That's my mind made up then, clutch and water pump ordered and the engine is coming out! Has anyone had any luck with the lifting the engine out and leaving the gearbox in situ to save messing round with driveshafts and suspension?

The Cambelt kit I've ordered comes with 2x end plugs, are these the camshaft seals you refer to? If not I'll wait and see what comes with the kit.

 

[Ads29]

That's my mind made up then, clutch and water pump ordered and the engine is coming out! Has anyone had any luck with the lifting the engine out and leaving the gearbox in situ to save messing round with driveshafts and suspension?

The Cambelt kit I've ordered comes with 2x end plugs, are these the camshaft seals you refer to? If not I'll wait and see what comes with the kit.

I've always taken them out as a pair, I doubt there's room to be honest to leave the box in in all honesty.

Yeah the end plugs are the ones I was referring too, I assume these where the seals you mentioned previously?

 

[Budgie]

Engine and box come out as one. make sure you drain the box oil before you whip the nearside shaft out of you'll make a mess of your floor.

Crank seals - leave them be if they're not leaking.

 

[Budgie]

Oh, and if you've got the engine out, i'd be changing the steering rack bushes if they've never been done. Access is 100x easier with an empty engine bay.

 

[Jonz]

Oh, and if you've got the engine out, i'd be changing the steering rack bushes if they've never been done. Access is 100x easier with an empty engine bay.

+1

 

[Christopher]

Just drop everything. Providing you have the locking tools, it's not that hard on a Mk2.

 

[Brendan2234]

Rack bushes are a good shout, will have a look at the gaiters as well. Depending on cost I might replace the engine and gearbox mounts with Powerflex or similar, for complete peace of mind in future and a bit of race car vibe at idle!

 

[The Chubby Pirate]

How many miles has it done? All depends on how much money you want to spend! Unless the dephaser is making the car sound like a diesel, you don't really need to change it. Water pumps seem to last forever and are driven by the aux belt so easy enough to change and I'm nearing on 150k miles on the original renault clutch.

This isn't good advice. If you do the cambelt and not the dephaser pulley, it'll almost certainly start rattling its c**t off straight after by the law of averages.

Its a full cambelt off job to re-do again.

For the sake of £100, change it.

 

[Brendan2234]

Good advice or not, it didn't apply to me anyway as my dephaser is already rattly when warm so it's got to be done!
In terms of engine and gearbox mounts, are there any which are really difficult to change that I should do? I've read that the dogbone link is a common failure on these so I'd like to replace it, do I need a twisted one for a ph2?not sure if any of the others are essential. If not I'll just examine each one and make my mind up then.

 

[JamesBryan]

It's the twisted dogbone mount yes, but you may as well just do the Powerflex insert job on your one rather than replacing the mount itself.

 

[Canary172]

Good advice or not, it didn't apply to me anyway as my dephaser is already rattly when warm so it's got to be done!
In terms of engine and gearbox mounts, are there any which are really difficult to change that I should do? I've read that the dogbone link is a common failure on these so I'd like to replace it, do I need a twisted one for a ph2?not sure if any of the others are essential. If not I'll just examine each one and make my mind up then.

Twisted dogbone wise you can either go down the Powerflex replacement bush kit (fitting guide available on here) or an OEM replacement - I decided on the Powerflex option in the end. Others to look out for are the upper engine mount (nearest RH suspension top mount) and lower gearbox mount which is accessed by removing the battery. I've replaced all three on mine!

 

[The Chubby Pirate]

Good advice or not, it didn't apply to me anyway as my dephaser is already rattly when warm so it's got to be done!
In terms of engine and gearbox mounts, are there any which are really difficult to change that I should do? I've read that the dogbone link is a common failure on these so I'd like to replace it, do I need a twisted one for a ph2?not sure if any of the others are essential. If not I'll just examine each one and make my mind up then.

What are you talking about?

He said to not bother doing it if its not rattling, but if you don't do it and do the cambelt without doing it, it'll almost certainly start failing.

Obviously you'd do it if the belts are due and its rattling.

 

[Jonz]

What are you talking about?

He said to not bother doing it if its not rattling, but if you don't do it and do the cambelt without doing it, it'll almost certainly start failing.

Obviously you'd do it if the belts are due and its rattling.

He was talking about £600 for a car being within his budget and whatnot I didn't know if he was trying to get himself a reliable car for as low as possible price or if he wanted to go the all out replacing everything. There is no urgent need to replace the dephaser, even if it is rattiling, it wont just fly apart, it's just embaressing to drive around with it sounding like a diesel. He also knows what hes doing, if he took the gamble and it started rattling before the next cambelt change is due, it would only cost him a new belt and an days worth of beer to change the dephaser, unlike someone else who would have go and spend another £500+ on getting the job done again.

 

[Christopher]

I'd always do the dephaser as a precaution.
They've changed the design of it for the Mk3 and they rarely fail, but I'm still having mine changed just in case.

 

[The Chubby Pirate]

Jesus christ.

Buy cheap, buy twice.

I'm out.

 

[Brendan2234]

I meant I'm ignoring the advice to not change the dephaser as mine is already rattling so it 100% needs doing, no question. That's why the car was cheap because it sounds like a diesel!

For what it's worth I don't think I'd ever do a belt on these without changing the dephaser, but that doesn't mean I'm going to judge someone else who leaves a quiet pulley on to save a few quid, it's their car and choice not mine. I just find these days my time is really limited, and I'd rather spend a bit extra to make sure I don't have to do a job again in the future, it's not a gamble I think is worth it. But if you're young free and single with loads of time and no money (been there too) I can understand a bit better taking a risk that might not pay off to save £130.

I've already ordered a genuine complete cambelt kit with dephaser, did that yesterday when I'd paid for the car. Now just trying to decide how much cash I want to spend on everything else while the engine is out!

 

[Jonz]

Fair enough. I had not seen that it was sounding like a diesel, I just guessed you were looking for a cheap clio to knock about in without spending unnessecerily on it. When I joined up to get guide (which has plenty of nifty tricks) I got the "you must change this, and this, and that or it will explode and the earth will shatter" which quickly exceeded the value of the car and "it can only be done by a specialist" which made me think I had just commited to rebuilding the space shuttle. It turned out you can do it with a couple of a jacks, some tools, a mirror to see some bolts and a bag of the finest quality compost you can get your hand on to sit on. Nothing to worry about

This video shows the internals of the dephaser and why they come to rattle.


If you don't have it, heres a link to the workshop manual which shows how to change the cambelt (though the guide on here has some some nifty tricks that would take some headscratching otherwise) https://www.dropbox.com/s/cmtix5rsowqpoo1/F4R_730.pdf?dl=0

 

[Brendan2234]

Thanks for the links and videos, some good info there!

Bit of an update you all on the car, I drove it back today in the tipping rain, about 15-20 miles of twisty B roads. Thought I'd share a few thoughts, questions in bold.

The car had been dry stored for something like 8 months, so the drive back was a bit nerve racking. The car felt underpowered and sluggish at first, then I hit a long hill and it refused to rev, started missing and I had to drop to first to get to the top on a busy NSL road. Not a great start, I'm wondering if I've made a massive mistake!

Limped it to Tesco garage and stuck half a tank of Momentum in, I'm assuming what little petrol was in the tank was well stale! Started it back up and it was running a lot better, feels pretty normal up until about 4500rpm. However when hitting 4.5k it feels like the limiter is cutting in, EML light starts flashing and the car bogs down, then suffers from a lack of power until it's turned off and restarted.

Does this sound like a knackered dephaser throwing the timing out when the PCM tries to engage the VVT system? Or have I got another underlying problem? The pulley is really noisy and the fact it wasn't changed with the last cambelt in 2015 doesn't fill me with confidence that the local garage who did the work got the timing 100% either. Any similar experiences of knackered dephaser pulleys having this effect would make me feel better, but I think my only real course of action is to get it changed, get the timing bang on and the engine thoroughly serviced and see if it's better.

As for the rest of the car, I'm pretty happy. It's really clean and tidy, even underneath it's immaculate with no sign of rust that I can see. Suspension all feels nice and tight with no knocks, the brakes are really sharp and positive, everything in the cabin seems to work (F&R heated screens, climate control, xenons, auto wipers etc) and the half leather seats are still supportive and in good condition. Even the steering wheel still has its thumbrests!

Not so good points are the gearchange feels a bit 'wooly'. (Is there a cheap quickshift kit available for these?) and coming on and off the throttle can be felt through the gearknob so I'm definitely going to polybush the dogbone mount. The steering feels nice when it's loaded up, but in the middle it feels a bit soft and vague, is this steering rack mounts going perhaps? It's also not quite central, so once the other jobs are done I'll book it in for wheel aligment. And it desperately needs a set of wiper blades. Think that's about it.

So, not quite the bargain I thought I was getting when I bid £580 thinking a £175 cambelt kit would be all it needed, but even in it's current poorly state, in the pouring rain with mismatched underinflated tyres, the sheer grip it managed to find on the wet roundabouts on the way home put a grin on my face. I can't imagine how much fun a well sorted one of these will full power must be, and can't wait to get it up to scratch!

A few pictures:

Have got a load of parts arriving in the next few days, I've probably spent about £350 so far, and I still need to pick up the bushes and the cam locking tools. I was going to order the genuine Renault tools, but will the Laser set do as I'll have the engine out? Just thinking I'll have access to use an impact gun to loosen the pulley bolts which should be less likely to bend the horseshoe used to lock the cams.

Hoping I can get the car all done for less than £1k (not including the tools which I'll sell on after) but hopefully with all the recent work it'll be worth more than that to a buyer who knows their 172s, so I'll still be in profit should I decide to sell up. Not that that's likely, if we get on well I think after all the work I've put in this one might be a keeper :smile:

 

[hipwell]

Might be worth checking the cat hasn't collapsed.

I read a thread the other day and the guy managed to collapse a brand new cat on track and that gave him a bogging down top end.

Just a suggestion, could be a number of things though I suppose

 

[Jonz]

The dephaser solenoid advances the timing at around 1800rpm I'm afraid, though it sounds like an electrical issue to me possibly just due to be stored.
That looks like it will be a well tidy car polished up!
Did you mention you were close to north wales? I was up there the other day when we had sun and found some great roads to fling it about on.

 

[Brendan2234]

Bugger, that's something I could really do without! At least I had an EML light flashing though so I should be able to extract a fault code which will give me something to start with. The idle is a bit on the lumpy side too so I was hoping getting the timing 100% would solve a few problems.

Been reading Davyboys thread on lumpy idles and that's convinced me to get the gen Renault locking set after all. Anyone got one they want to sell?

 

[Jonz]

Part of the fun of owning a cliosport is their quirks! They do tend to have a little bit of a lumpy idle, especially cold, just not excessively so. They also have a tendancy to kangeroo for about 30-60seconds from dead cold.

 

[Canary172]

Thanks for the links and videos, some good info there!

Not so good points are the gearchange feels a bit 'wooly'. (Is there a cheap quickshift kit available for these?) and coming on and off the throttle can be felt through the gearknob so I'm definitely going to polybush the dogbone mount.

Renewing the engine mounts will improve gearshift if current ones are worn. I certainly noticed the difference after polybushing the dogbone mount! Regardless, the gear change on these Clios isn't renowned for being the slickest.

The steering feels nice when it's loaded up, but in the middle it feels a bit soft and vague, is this steering rack mounts going perhaps?

Steering rack bushes are a possibility, though be warned they are a bit of a pain to replace (poor access, speaking from experience). Also worth checking track rod ends and inner tie rods.

I was going to order the genuine Renault tools, but will the Laser set do as I'll have the engine out?

All the recommendations I've observed from the specialists on CS is to use genuine Renault timing tools only.

 

[bloke]

flashing eml is an injector. should have a code stored.

 

[Brendan2234]

Well after a little bit more driving with some fresh fuel it is running a lot better, no stuttering or flashing eml lamps. However it does seem to have a slight hesitation above 3.5-4k rpm and the power drops off a little, doesn't do it all the time it seems worse when it's warm and the dephaser pulley is rattling!

While I've got the engine apart I'd like to check and clean the injectors, if their resistance readings are in spec is there any other servicing I can do to them diy? Would it be worth sending them off to be cleaned by a pro? Will do hot and cold compression checks before taking the engine out too
Probably going to fit new ignition leads at the same time as new plugs, surprised at the cost of Magnecor ones though, I've already spent a lot of wedge on parts so as I'm changing leads as a precaution more than anything I'm reluctant to spend 90 quid on top!
Theres MLR high performance 8mm silicone ones on eBay for half the price, anyone had any bad experiences with these?

 

[Stay Puft]

Is that flame red? Looks rather unloved!

Just seen the first picture, looks better there!