Heel & toe shifting

[MarkCup]

Been trying it in the 200 and have been struggling a bit. The brake pedal's firm enough, relative pedal positions are OK, but the throttle response compared to my 172 Cup and Ignis is terrible! I give the throttle a stab, nothing happens, then what seems like half a second later the revs climb :S

Went out for a play practicing yesterday up and down Goodwood hill...

 

[Jamesstone]

Calibration work can help with this Mark, Never going to be as tight as cable throttle response though sadly

 

[James28]

I know this has probably been covered everywhere on the internet, but could someone please explain to a Noob what Heel & toe shifting actually does

 

[Alex H]

I know this has probably been covered everywhere on the internet, but could someone please explain to a Noob what Heel & toe shifting actually does

Nothing.

 

[Jamesstone]

I know this has probably been covered everywhere on the internet, but could someone please explain to a Noob what Heel & toe shifting actually does

Improves the balance of the car, reduces lock up on RWD, saves Renault gear box's lol

 

[Infamous Nikko]

One benefit is that "heel-and-toeing" allows the driver to downshift at the last moment before entering the turn, after starting braking and the car has slowed, so the engine speed will not be high enough when the lower gear is engaged/

Plus I've known Ladies to drop their panties when I've told them I can heel and toe.

Trufax.

 

[Bob Leathem]

Proper heel and toeing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyK-l9tEeUE

 

[sprintcup]

I was told a while back that some new ECU's maps cut the fuel/ign when both accel/brake are seen under certain conditions for obvious reasons but don't know if that's true, it is difficult on mine with FBW throttle, will be glad when it's gone.

Regards Russ..........

 

[Adam G]

Think it's probably the pedal spacing and you may have to be a bit more aggressive and use more heel than side of foot Mark. The wife's Puma is simple to do it in using similar technique to the vid but other cars I have to twist my heel more.

 

[Kam.]

Its the fly by wire throttle. Same issue on my brothers lupo...

 

[MarkCup]

I know this has probably been covered everywhere on the internet, but could someone please explain to a Noob what Heel & toe shifting actually does

It is nothing more than rev matching while braking.

Why rev match?

Eliminates unintended and uncontrolled weight transfer when down shifting.
Eliminates wear on the drivetrain and clutch.
Reduces the chance of locking the wheels up.

Get your car up to 50mph and select 2nd gear without matching the revs. Then try it with the revs matched. Which do you think is better for your car and your progress?

That's an extreme example, but the abuse you subject your clutch to, and the sudden lurch forwards as you bring the clutch up is what rev matching (and heel & toe) is all about.

 

[Rhys Beal]

Mine does exactly the same being a 182. But when the revs are high the throttle response is not too bad, so heel and toe works fine.

Why is the fly by wire throttle so lazy on low rpm?

ECU is on standard map

 

[MarkCup]

Nothing.

LOL

Granted it is not necessary to heel & toe on the road, but on track your car will thank you for it on every single down shift.

On the road, simple rev matching will achieve the same thing.

 

[Joe R26]

I've been learning this. It's tricky to begin with. My problem was havin the confidence whilst braking without your whole foot on the brake pedal.

 

[Jordi17]

Cant you blip the throttle whilst the clutch is down therfor matching the revs?

 

[MarkCup]

Do not understand your question...that's exactly what I am doing.

Edit: ignore me. To Joe, as above practice simple rev matching first, forget about being on the brake while you do it.

 

[cliobritt]

It feels more Natural on track, when braking hard.

 

[Joe R26]

I always rev match. That's easy. Just never really bothered with heel toe until recently. Think it works quiet well with the Clio pedals.

 

[Rhys Beal]

I always rev match. That's easy. Just never really bothered with heel toe until recently. Think it works quiet well with the Clio pedals.

Clio pedals aren't the best but there are worst out there!

With the standard sport steering wheel I find it very tight to left foot brake as my knee nearly hits it!

Need a Sabelt Renault Sport one me thinks

 

[Yellow Dave]

the 1*2 FBW throttle wasn't hard to heel and toe or simply blipping the throttle to match revs, it just comes down to plenty of practice, then once you get the hang of it and realise how much smoother it makes your driving you start doing it out of habit. not tried it in a 197/200 but a normal Mk3 Clio does it just as well

with ref to sprintcups comment about the ECU cutting in, my Mk4 Golf does this when I do left foot braking and blipping the throttle to cut understeer. it just cuts the ignition whereas the Clio was great

 

[sam55]

I feel like it's noticeably easier to engage a gear when the revs are matched and I like to maximise the use of engine braking so heel and toe'ing seems to make it easier and the gearbox seems to prefer it

 

[Rhys Beal]

with ref to sprintcups comment about the ECU cutting in, my Mk4 Golf does this when I do left foot braking and blipping the throttle to cut understeer. it just cuts the ignition whereas the Clio was great

I had a 206 diesel that did this.

 

[Dan]

Even just building for an over take with rev matching makes it feel much nicer

Have a look at burp speeds race car accelerator pedal if you struggle to reach due to ankle flex like I do seems a lot easier to blip with that on the side

 

[Ralphizzle]

I heel and toe on UP-shifts!

 

[Chip-mk1]

It is nothing more than rev matching while braking.

Why rev match?

Eliminates unintended and uncontrolled weight transfer when down shifting.
Eliminates wear on the drivetrain and clutch.
Reduces the chance of locking the wheels up.

Get your car up to 50mph and select 2nd gear without matching the revs. Then try it with the revs matched. Which do you think is better for your car and your progress?

That's an extreme example, but the abuse you subject your clutch to, and the sudden lurch forwards as you bring the clutch up is what rev matching (and heel & toe) is all about.

On a FWD car when you are stood on the brakes which you normally are on track when down shifting, letting the clutch up without matching the revs or not really is going to make naff all difference to the dynamics of the car really.

Go and do your test, take note of the magnitude of the lurch your experience.
Now go and press the brake pedal as hard as you can and see how much of a lurch that is just to see the relative forces you are talking about.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not telling anyone not to do it, its very good practice from the point of view of mechanical sympathy for the gearbox synchros, but im not convinced that on a clio under hard braking that it would actually unsettle the car if you dont do it, especially if you are relatively smooth coming off the clutch anyway.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I heel and toe on UP-shifts!

Not sure if that is meant as a joke but if you need to blip the throttle on a shift upwards your being too slow with changing gear even if you have a very light flyheel.

 

[Nick172Cup]

Sorry Chip completely disagree with you here as many people will do, it makes driving quick around a track much easier. Why let off the clutch slowly when you could just rev match and be smoother, less harmful to the car and quicker...

 

[Ralphizzle]

Sweet dowhs**t @ 0:50...
http://youtu.be/iXSxVFYPQ8k

Matching revs and getting shift lock... #grannyshifting
Or was that because of the weight transfer from late braking!?

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Sorry Chip completely disagree with you here as many people will do, it makes driving quick around a track much easier. Why let off the clutch slowly when you could just rev match and be smoother, less harmful to the car and quicker...

That's not his point.

Anyone that has practiced this technique is likely to use it everywhere, I'm not sure what you mean in your post though MarkCup, looks (and sounds) to respond fine to me.. You should try it on any turbo-diesel and then complain about the 200!!

 

[James28]

Excuse my ignorance, matching Revs to what ?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Sorry Chip completely disagree with you here as many people will do

Really mate?
What bit do you disagree with?

it makes driving quick around a track much easier.

Not sure what you mean be easier?
Certainly easier on the gearbox, as for easier on the driver, depends on the amount of practice at it you have had, I know a lot of people who struggle with it, and invariably what then happens is that they dont apply the right amount of braking force to keep the car stable as they get distracted by blipping the throttle.
So think for a trackday novice, it would probably make it harder not easier.

Why let off the clutch slowly when you could just rev match and be smoother, less harmful to the car and quicker...

On a gearbox with decent synchros I really am not convinced on the "quicker" but I agree its definately kinder on the car.

I think you were missing my point, I wasnt saying dont do it, I was just saying dont expect your laptimes in a 172 to drop just cause you start heel and toeing, in fact if anything they'll probably get worse until you have had a lot of practice.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Excuse my ignorance, matching Revs to what ?

To what they will be once the clutch comes up.

So if you are changing down at 5Krpm, you'll blip the throttle to make the revs nearer to 7K (for example, its ratio dependant) so that you are ready in the next gear (not an exact science, just getting the revs close to what they will be is good enough to see 95% of the benefits)

On a rwd drive car it really is vital, as the last thing you want to do generally is to lock the rear wheels going into a corner and with all the weight transferred to the front under hard braking thats a very real possiblity.

 

[Ralphizzle]

Not sure if that is meant as a joke but if you need to blip the throttle on a shift upwards your being too slow with changing gear even if you have a very light flyheel.

Heel and toe only works on downshifting innit?
Brake and Accelerate.

And what good is it to slooowly let out the clutch when you're speeding beyond 5 thou the sweet spot of the F4R?
(clutch frying)

As to weight transfer... braking; do we want the weight on the front on our FWD or not?
I'm not talking trail braking.

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Excuse my ignorance, matching Revs to what ?

If you're traveling at 40mph in 3rd, lets say your rpm is going to be around 3000. Now if you were in 2nd at the same road speed, your rpm would be more like 4500, as soon as you press the clutch pedal (in 3rd) your revs will fall as the engine has lost connection with the wheels, so let's say you slowly let the clutch back out in 2nd and the revs have already dipped to 2k, your engine has got to spin up all the way to 4500rpm under no load. Now this isn't necessarily bad for the engine (ignoring the fact it's very uncomfortable for anyone in the car), but on a transversely mounted engine (e.g. in most FWD cars and in this case the Clio) it will play extra wear on your engine mounts, clutch, synchros. Again, this won't kill the car, but it will put extra wear on the above items.

By rev matching, you're just revving the engine whilst the clutch is down to match what the revs will be in the newly selected gear. So you're at 3k rpm in 3rd, you want 2nd, so you press the clutch, the revs start to drop, you 'blip' the throttle to as close to 4500 as you can and release the clutch. It will be smooth and put less wear on parts of the car.

Heal & Toe is just rev matching whilst braking, so you position the ball of your foot on the brake, and pivot the bottom of your foot onto the accelerator to achieve the blip. This is not only smooth, but it means you're already in the right gear to accelerate when you come off the brakes.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Heel and toe only works on downshifting innit?
Brake and Accelerate.

And what good is it to slooowly let out the clutch when you're speeding beyond 5 thou the sweet spot of the F4R?
(clutch frying)

Im suggesting if people are worried about unsettling the car when they dont match the revs then being slower with the clutch is an alternative, I do NOT think it is a better option though so please dont misquote me to make it sound like I have said that.

As to weight transfer... braking; do we want the weight on the front on our FWD or not?
I'm not talking trail braking.

Do we want the weight on the front of the car? Depends entirely on the circumstances there isnt one answer that always applies to that question, personally I can normally feel the balance of the car fairly well if im still braking as I start to turn in and that point I manage the trasfer accordingly by more or less braking force (which ends up as the trail braking you are on about)

 

[Jordi17]

so like I said blipping the throttle on down changes, it doesn't neccesarily mean that the brake is also applied at the same time of the accelerator.

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

so like I said blipping the throttle on down changes, it doesn't neccesarily mean that the brake is also applied at the same time of the accelerator.

Heel and toe is rev matching whilst braking.. It does necessarily mean that the brake is being applied, otherwise it would just be called Toe and that's just silly.

 

[Chip-mk1]

so like I said blipping the throttle on down changes, it doesn't neccesarily mean that the brake is also applied at the same time of the accelerator.

On the road, its good practice in terms of clutch wear to do so when you are just slowing down using the engine, that tends not to be something you ever do on track though, well I dont anyway, as I certainly cant think of any place on any track Ive driven that I ever change down a gear without being on the brakes as well TBH

 

[MarkCup]

Of course downshifts on track are when on the brakes...but the flaw in your argument chip is that you assume you only ever downshift while threshold braking...i.e. as hard as is physically possible.

That is so not the case in my experience.

Take St. Marys at Goodwood for example, a fast right hander beforehand is taken in 5th, then you need a breathe on the brakes and a shift into 4th before St. Marys. To threshold brake there would be absolutely insane...and I know from bitter experience what it can be like unsettling the car on entry there. So it requires gentle braking and a heel/toe downshift so as to not unsettle the car. To not rev match would pitch weight seriously forwards.

Can you heel and toe yourself?

If so I'm stunned that you can't see the true benefit of it...those that argue against it are normally those that can't do it, so assume it's pointless/don't understand.

 

[Nick172Cup]

OF course shifts on track are when on the brakes...but the flaw in your argument chip is that you assume you only ever downshift while threshold braking...i.e. as hard as is physically possible.

That is so not the case in my experience.

Take St. Marys at Goodwood for example, a fast right hander beforehand is taken in 5th, then you need a breathe on the brakes and a shift into 4th before St. Marys. To threshold brake there would be absolutely insane...and I know from bitter experience what it can be like unsettling the car on entry there.

Can you heel and toe yourself?

If so I'm stunned that you can't see the true benefit of it...those that argue against it are normally those that can't do it, so assume it's pointless/don't understand.

Was going to reply to this thread but can't be arsed anymore, but Marks put the point down perfectly.