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HP in Clio Vs top speed some real information.



Its been posted before but might mak for interesting reading.

To work out drag you need the Cdp and the frontal area and the top speed car car attains and how much HP the car makes when the cars flat out .

Take for example a car with a Cdp of 0.3 and a frontal area of 3m squared (32.3 feet squared)
It has a equivalent frontal drag of 32.3 x 0.3 = 9.69ft squared.

This figure is what you need when calculating drag at a particular speed. What the figure is meant to represent is the cars equivalent flat plate drag ie what would the car be equal to in terms of a flat piece of material striagt on to the oncoming air.

To find out the drag multiply this equivalent frontal drag by the dynamic air pressure at the speed since the faster you go the more the more the drag this dynamic air pressure isn't constant.

At 57.5mph = 10
At 115mph = 33
At 138mph = 50
At 172.5mph = 75
At 230mph = 140

(See this and this for a spreadsheet graph to get accurate value for the dynamic pressure over a bigger range)

So to find out the air drag of the vahicle multiply the above figure by the equivalent flat plate drag area.

So assume our car of 9.69ft maxes out at 138mph then the drag from the car (tyre drag not included) is 9.69 x 50 = 484.5lb drag so assuming that the was no tyre drag and the car had a long enough road the car with a 484.5lb thrust turbo jet would reach 138mph dead although it might take a lifetime to get there.

To convert this lb drag to an equivalent hp you multiply it by the speed in MPH and by 1.467. Then divide this figure by 550.

So for our example 484.5 x 1.468 x 138 = 98085

Then 98085 / 550 = 178hp.

So out car has 178hp at the ground (assuming its flat out and it isn't at the rev limiter).
Then we ned to add a few hp to the car to account for the drag the tyres generate so 10hp isn't a bad guess.
Therefore at whatever rpm gave the flat our speed the engine has 188hp.


This above calcs arn't totally accurate since air pressure varies not just with speed but also altitude and temp along with constistance but its accurate enough for most people. Also other facts ie ram effect on the intake (ie the Ferrari 550 uses its ugly scoop) will have an effeect on engine power since more air is going into the engine.


Another example is a 172 Clio it has a Cdp of 0.36 and a frontal area of 2.01m squared (multiply by 10.76 to get ft squared so 21.64 square feet)

We will assume it will achieve 138mph which is about right Evo manged on the speedbowl so its not to bad a guess.

Therefore: fronal area x Cdp x dynamic air pressure at the speed x 1.468 x speed in MPH / 550 = HP at ground at that RPM
21.64 x 0.36 x 50 x 1.468 x 138 / 550 = 143hp at 6.9k (assume 20mph per thousand RPM)

Assume an extra 10hp from the drag of the tyres then a 172 has 153hp before the gearbox which is quite accurate since I havn't fiddled the figures to fit.


Another example is a 1.4 Clio it has a Cdp of 0.36 and a frontal area of 1.89m squared (multiply by 10.76 to get ft squared so 20.3 square feet)

We will assume it will achieve 115mph.

Therefore: fronal area x Cdp x dynamic air pressure at the speed x 1.468 x speed in MPH / 550 = HP at ground at that RPM
20.3 x 0.36 x 33 x 1.468 x 115 / 550 = 74hp at 5.75k (assume 20mph per thousand RPM)

Assume an extra 5~10hp from the drag of the tyres (there smaller than 172 etc ones) so a 1.4 has 79~84hp before the gearbox which is not bad, it shows that a 1.2 won't get to a real 115mph without a reduction in drag or a hill (which gives the car more energy which means more power).


An interesting thing is using these equations you can work out what sort of power you'd need to do 200mph in a Clio (aassuming you have a long enough ratio box)

fronal area x Cdp x dynamic air pressure at the speed x 1.468 x speed in MPH / 550 = hp required
20.3 x 0.36 x 110 x 1.468 x 200 / 550 = 429hp

A normal shell is less draggy so this is what we would use. but we need 429hp to get there and even if we have a diesel box giving us 35mph/thousand rpm the engine need to make 429hp at 5.7k.

429hp is expensive (2 x 172 engine with N20 or throttle bodies maybe, or a highly tunned turbo engine) but if you go back to the equuation all you need is


fronal area x Cdp x dynamic air pressure at the speed = lb thrust turbo jet engine
20.3 x 0.36 x 110 = 803.88 lb thrust which is a very low poer turbo jet. A l-29 last generation engine makes 1850lb thrust for £5k.

Since the L-29's turbo jet engine will make 1850 or so power how fast would a Clio with this engine go?

Well for 230mph it needs

Fronal area x Cdp x dynamic air pressure at the speed = lb thrust turbo jet engine
20.3 x 0.36 x 140 = 1023lb

For 345mph it needs

Fronal area x Cdp x dynamic air pressure at the speed = lb thrust turbo jet engine
20.3 x 0.36 x 300 = 2192.4lb

But to get to 345mph in a normal engined Clio we'd need

fronal area x Cdp x dynamic air pressure at the speed x 1.468 x speed in MPH / 550 = hp required
20.3 x 0.36 x 300 x 1.468 x 345 / 550 = 2019hp
 

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  BMW M4; S1000 RR
edde... Do you sleep at all??

Clio's body is awful for drag... For reference. An E46 BMW M3 Coupe has a drag coefficient of 0.3

A Ferrari F50 has a drag coefficient of 0.375 (somewhere around there) which is mainly downforce actually, curtousy of that massive spoiler and big air scoops. Which shows how impressive that car is.. (it can still do 200mph+)

Is that all your own words ??
 
  Bumblebee
The lexus GS had the smallest coefficient of drag for any car a few years ago, impressive for such a huge car.

many an hour in the wind tunnel
 
  RenaultSport clio 172 mk2
The lexus GS had the smallest coefficient of drag for any car a few years ago, impressive for such a huge car.

many an hour in the wind tunnel

The bigger the car is the easier it is to get a low drag coefficient because you have the length to work in to get the aerodynamics right, eg, by narrowing the rear and having as flat as possible rear window. Cars where the aerodynamics are compromised by having to fit inside a small form factor are the hardest to get a low drag coefficient. Its also easier to get every aspect of engineering right if its an expensive car and its the product your company uses to show of the quality of its processes, so the company is willing to spend a lot getting it right. That's not criticism of the Lexus. But a small economy car that has to to be built down to a size and a prize is never going to be able to match it.
 
  RenaultSport clio 172 mk2
...

Another example is a 172 Clio it has a Cdp of 0.36 and a frontal area of 2.01m squared (multiply by 10.76 to get ft squared so 21.64 square feet)

We will assume it will achieve 138mph which is about right Evo manged on the speedbowl so its not to bad a guess.

Therefore: fronal area x Cdp x dynamic air pressure at the speed x 1.468 x speed in MPH / 550 = HP at ground at that RPM
21.64 x 0.36 x 50 x 1.468 x 138 / 550 = 143hp at 6.9k (assume 20mph per thousand RPM)

Assume an extra 10hp from the drag of the tyres then a 172 has 153hp before the gearbox which is quite accurate since I havn't fiddled the figures to fit.

...

Renault says the Clio sport 172 puts out 172 ps at the flywheel. That's 169.6 bhp. The widely accepted rule of thumb is that a front wheel drive car loses about 15% of its power between the flywheel and the road in frictional losses in the drive train and losses in the tyres. Compared to 17% on a rear wheel drive because the drive has to go through a 90 degree turn in the diff.

If that 15% figure was right for the Clio 172 that would leave 144.2 bhp to get delivered at the road. Edde's calculation from theory got about as close as you could get to that - 143 bhp - based on the quoted figures for cross-sectional area and drag co-efficent, plus the top speed of 138 mph that all the magazines said that car would do.
 
  MKIII 138
skoda superb has exellent drag co-eff, its diesel cars have amazing economy hence used for taxi`s.

btw if fwd is 15% rwd is 17% what percentage of tranloss is awd and what percentage is 4wd ?
 
Meggerman where do you get those figures for transmission loss I couldn't see them in Edde's post?
Transmission loss has lots of influencing factors I don't think it's as simple as saying FWD will have 15% etc I mean even if two cars had different gear oil it would be affected?
Look at the Veyron though apparently this looses 1000bph alone through the transmission.
 
edde... Do you sleep at all??
Is that all your own words ??

Yep went to sleep just as I had posted that.

Yep all my own works no copying off anyone.

Renault says the Clio sport 172 puts out 172 ps at the flywheel. That's 169.6 bhp. The widely accepted rule of thumb is that a front wheel drive car loses about 15% of its power between the flywheel and the road in frictional losses in the drive train and losses in the tyres. Compared to 17% on a rear wheel drive because the drive has to go through a 90 degree turn in the diff.

If that 15% figure was right for the Clio 172 that would leave 144.2 bhp to get delivered at the road. Edde's calculation from theory got about as close as you could get to that - 143 bhp - based on the quoted figures for cross-sectional area and drag co-efficent, plus the top speed of 138 mph that all the magazines said that car would do.
I don't like the 15 and 175 rules I've always tried to go by an artcile i red some time agao by the owner of Puma tunning which gave some good figuyres to back up his claim.
The old Renault 19 had a decent drag coeff iirc, I forget the figures now :(
Yep superb they were bigger longer better shaped car but they were very good.
skoda superb has exellent drag co-eff, its diesel cars have amazing economy hence used for taxi`s.
Also because the old ones had n unlimited milage 3 year warently in low spec models they were cheap and there are VAG's underneither so reliable as heck.
 
  RenaultSport clio 172 mk2
Meggerman where do you get those figures for transmission loss I couldn't see them in Edde's post?
Transmission loss has lots of influencing factors I don't think it's as simple as saying FWD will have 15% etc I mean even if two cars had different gear oil it would be affected?

As Edde says in his immediate previous posting, it isn't as simple as 15% or 17%. Its a lot more complicated. That's why I called it a "rule of thumb", not a "rule" in my posting. That's what "rule of thumb" means, a simplification of a more complicated situation which usually gives pretty close to the right answer.

Here's a good reference for anyone who is interested in knowing what the rule us:
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk
Scroll down a bit to "Technical Articles".
 


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