Ktec's Sadev gearbox

[greendestiny]

Hi everyone this is my first post here but I've been following the site on and off since I bought my Clio Trophy back in '05.

I have a question for some of you please. I've been thinking about going for Ktec's sequential gearbox which is listed in Pistonheads classifieds: http://http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1345942.htm It's for road use only (or no use as I don't drive it much at all). It's basically just my toy for playing with occasionally.

Anyway, while researching this gearbox, I stumbled across this thread: http://http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=426132&highlight=sequential

Since seeing that thread I've been slightly put off buying the gearbox. I'd just like your opinions of the box please. (Not if I should buy it or not, but if you were buying it and came across a video of the car with the box in it and it's on fire, would you be put off buying it?)

Ktec never mentioned the four foot flames to me. Only said they're selling the car so the box had to come out. They also said it's had a pre-sale full rebuild from SWR. Which is comforting to know but would you guys still stay clear after that incident?

Advise appreciated.

And finally, please excuse me if I've done anything against forum rules. I still need to learn 'em.

Thanks,
GD

 

[sideways danny]

the car did loads of time on track at FSC a couple of weeks after the fire. Box wasn't effected

 

[greendestiny]

the car did loads of time on track at FSC a couple of weeks after the fire. Box wasn't effected

Thanks Danny. That helps alot!

 

[Timmyevo6]

overpriced! waste of money! these are about £6k new if you know the correct people to buy though, I.E the clio cup teams! and they DON'T improve performance, they lessen transmission loss, via the gears being pre-selected and ready to engage, I.E 50milli-second flat-shift up a gear. they don't give you more performace! If it was circa £4k inc vat it'd be a sensible buy, but they're marketing this box towards idiots with more money than sense and even less mechanical knowledge!! if it was a decent price, a race team would buy it for a spare!

However, because your car is mainly a road car, you'd be a fool to buy this! it'll be knackered within months. they're not designed for constant use on roads, you can't go from 5 to 2 in 1 go, its gotta be 5-4-3-2. my mate who runs a few of the clio cup cars in clio cup reckons they'd be refreshing the box every 6-8 rounds, which works out at about 1200miles. BUT that is because hundreths of a second count in clio-cup!
a refresh cost can be anywhere from £500-£2'500. plus cost of removal-refitting. the one forsale is CLAIMED to have a re-fresh, but motorsport parts come with NO warrenty!

i've used dog engagment box's in my race car, they work in the same manner as the OEM H pattern but with straight cut gears to lessen transmission loss BUT they last even less time and go bang alot easier, i had a ikeya straight shifter installed with mine also!
mine was refreshed every 3 rounds (6 races) in the end i went back to a sycncro box, my laps times dropped by 0.02-0.04, at my clubman level it made NO difference!

I've used a sequential box in a proper race car and they're awesome, however it'd be stupid in a road car!

 

[Englebert]

Would be silly for a road car. Besides the reliability and rebuild issues, i imagine it will be incredibly loud.

 

[Bazzon]

Not really designed to be used on the road. Ideal for a focussed track car or a race car.

But not a mod to consider for a road car.

 

[Cooksport]

overpriced! waste of money! these are about £6k new if you know the correct people to buy though, I.E the clio cup teams! and they DON'T improve performance, they lessen transmission loss, via the gears being pre-selected and ready to engage, I.E 50milli-second flat-shift up a gear. they don't give you more performace! If it was circa £4k inc vat it'd be a sensible buy, but they're marketing this box towards idiots with more money than sense and even less mechanical knowledge!! if it was a decent price, a race team would buy it for a spare!

However, because your car is mainly a road car, you'd be a fool to buy this! it'll be knackered within months. they're not designed for constant use on roads, you can't go from 5 to 2 in 1 go, its gotta be 5-4-3-2. my mate who runs a few of the clio cup cars in clio cup reckons they'd be refreshing the box every 6-8 rounds, which works out at about 1200miles. BUT that is because hundreths of a second count in clio-cup!
a refresh cost can be anywhere from £500-£2'500. plus cost of removal-refitting. the one forsale is CLAIMED to have a re-fresh, but motorsport parts come with NO warrenty!

i've used dog engagment box's in my race car, they work in the same manner as the OEM H pattern but with straight cut gears to lessen transmission loss BUT they last even less time and go bang alot easier, i had a ikeya straight shifter installed with mine also!
mine was refreshed every 3 rounds (6 races) in the end i went back to a sycncro box, my laps times dropped by 0.02-0.04, at my clubman level it made NO difference!

I've used a sequential box in a proper race car and they're awesome, however it'd be stupid in a road car!

Im pritty sure this isnt even the clio cup box.

It can be used with all the standard driveshafts etc.

 

[Cooksport]

Timmyevo6 - Nice description... but i dont think its the clio cup box. It can be used with standard driveshafts etc. the clio cup one cannot.

 

[Timmyevo6]

clio cup box can be used with OEM drive shafts, but a modification is required to the output shaft end of the drive shafts.

 

[greendestiny]

Wow thanks Timmyevo6 and everyone! So these boxes commonly have reliability issues?! I know it'll be less than practical in normal driving but I hardly ever drive the car and it's purely for playtime and ownership so I won't really be driving it as an A to B car.

I can't help imagining how fun it'll be trying a sequential box in the Clio but I certainly don't want any problems with reliability!

Thanks
GD

 

[K-Tec Racing]

Hi everyone this is my first post here but I've been following the site on and off since I bought my Clio Trophy back in '05.

I have a question for some of you please. I've been thinking about going for Ktec's sequential gearbox which is listed in Pistonheads classifieds: http://http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1345942.htm It's for road use only (or no use as I don't drive it much at all). It's basically just my toy for playing with occasionally.

Anyway, while researching this gearbox, I stumbled across this thread: http://http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=426132&highlight=sequential

Since seeing that thread I've been slightly put off buying the gearbox. I'd just like your opinions of the box please. (Not if I should buy it or not, but if you were buying it and came across a video of the car with the box in it and it's on fire, would you be put off buying it?)

Ktec never mentioned the four foot flames to me. Only said they're selling the car so the box had to come out. They also said it's had a pre-sale full rebuild from SWR. Which is comforting to know but would you guys still stay clear after that incident?

Advise appreciated.

And finally, please excuse me if I've done anything against forum rules. I still need to learn 'em.

Thanks,
GD

The incident in question was a rod going in the engine, this caused some oil to hit the manifold and catch fire. They were flash flames and nothing on the car was damaged or had to be repaired. Even the graphics were fine. It had no effect on the gearbox, the engine was changed and then the car was used at the French Car Show where the box worked fine.

We are now putting the car up for sale and selling the gearbox seperately (as leaving the box in the car would make it a very expensive Clio). The gearbox has covered around 1000 miles and has been fully overhauled by SWR Motorsport (UK Sadev importers) and they chaged all the seals and bearings. When they stripped the box down they asked why we wanted it overhauling as there appeared to be nothing that needed changing. I wanted it done as I wanted to sell it to its next owner in A1 condition. I also asked them for the latest price for the same gearbox, linkeage and gear indicator we have and the cost was just over £9700.

We specced the box to be used in a road car (as we did many years ago with our GT Turbo) so we went for the non LSD diff so we could use standard shafts. A Sadev diff is available but this requres their shafts and would have bumped up the cost price of the box massively which we did not want to do in our road car.

I hope this helps and should anyone want any further information just let me know or speak to Jill or Steve at SWR Motorsport.

David.

 

[K-Tec Racing]

overpriced! waste of money! these are about £6k new if you know the correct people to buy though, I.E the clio cup teams! and they DON'T improve performance, they lessen transmission loss, via the gears being pre-selected and ready to engage, I.E 50milli-second flat-shift up a gear. they don't give you more performace! If it was circa £4k inc vat it'd be a sensible buy, but they're marketing this box towards idiots with more money than sense and even less mechanical knowledge!! if it was a decent price, a race team would buy it for a spare!

However, because your car is mainly a road car, you'd be a fool to buy this! it'll be knackered within months. they're not designed for constant use on roads, you can't go from 5 to 2 in 1 go, its gotta be 5-4-3-2. my mate who runs a few of the clio cup cars in clio cup reckons they'd be refreshing the box every 6-8 rounds, which works out at about 1200miles. BUT that is because hundreths of a second count in clio-cup!
a refresh cost can be anywhere from £500-£2'500. plus cost of removal-refitting. the one forsale is CLAIMED to have a re-fresh, but motorsport parts come with NO warrenty!

i've used dog engagment box's in my race car, they work in the same manner as the OEM H pattern but with straight cut gears to lessen transmission loss BUT they last even less time and go bang alot easier, i had a ikeya straight shifter installed with mine also!
mine was refreshed every 3 rounds (6 races) in the end i went back to a sycncro box, my laps times dropped by 0.02-0.04, at my clubman level it made NO difference!

I've used a sequential box in a proper race car and they're awesome, however it'd be stupid in a road car!

I am sorry but a Clio with this box fitted is faster! It is like have one seemless gear when going up through the box, no coming on and off the throttle to change gear. I happen to have driven a few Clios so I can tell you this from experience, and everyone who has driven the car with the box fitted will also confirm this.

Oh, and we are not just CLAIMING the box has had an overhaul it HAS had an overhaul. May I suggest you check your information before trying to discredit what we are saying.

David.

 

[greendestiny]

Hi David, thanks for your reply. Quick question please... does the reconditioning work by SWR come with a guarantee of any sort?

GD

 

[Danmalone1999]

Dog box, either H pattern or sequential are for race and rally cars. Total waste of money in a road car. SWR and top notch though, i would trust anything they do. They dont piss about.

 

[Alpine_motorsport]

I dont know about that......they ve messed up a few things for us on our formula renaults!!!! I just re build them myself now

 

[Cooksport]

They have to be pritty good otherwise no one would use them..

Besides, they have always done my box's ok.

K-tec would not sell this gearbox if it wasnt in top condition.

 

[domjolly]

surely this gearbox in theory means you would be able to accelerate quicker, it would not make the car quicker i.e bhp...but wouldn't it in theory take away the couple of seconds between ..foot off accelerator on clutch change gear off clutch on accelerator?? would this not mean you could accelertate faster?? or am i miles off the mark

not that i wanna buy it just intrigued as ive seen a v6 clio with this kind of box fitted on youtube and it looked rapid.

 

[Cooksport]

Gearchange is quicker, gear ratios are closer.

More BHP at the WHEELS compared to a standard box.

 

[Scrooge]

Gearchange is quicker, gear ratios are closer.

More BHP at the WHEELS compared to a standard box.

Therefore quicker as BHP at the wheels is all that counts not the fly

 

[Fred@BTM]

surely this gearbox in theory means you would be able to accelerate quicker, it would not make the car quicker i.e bhp...but wouldn't it in theory take away the couple of seconds between ..foot off accelerator on clutch change gear off clutch on accelerator?? would this not mean you could accelertate faster?? or am i miles off the mark

not that i wanna buy it just intrigued as ive seen a v6 clio with this kind of box fitted on youtube and it looked rapid.

the one with 450bhp thanks to a bloody great supercharger?

 

[Timmyevo6]

Gearchange is quicker, gear ratios are closer.

More BHP at the WHEELS compared to a standard box.

not in my experience. i've had a car dyno'd with a straight cut box and without 1, power wise, there is no increase.

its to do with removing drive to the wheels while shifting, with a straight cut gear, there is less. my dog box would do less than 50millisecond upshift with a flat shift, compare that to a time of 2 100th's of a second to up using the clutch on a syncro box. you're certainly NOT talking seconds a lap, its no more than tenths, but in high-end racing, tenths count!

I've had box's that have had a re-fresh, gone into a corner 'on it', missed a gear, rammed it back into gear and killed a cog, its easy done!

this is a racing car box, not a road car box.

 

[franx]

also when looking at the cars that have one ; there are no engine-mounts as you know them. The engine bolts straight to the chassis (mounts but stiff) to eliminate all engine-movement or else it would come out of gear a lot. Also you need to alter engine management to cut out the engine during shifts.

I think when having this (engine resonance/vibes/rough ride) on a road car it will be very very annoying after the "wow' factor has gone after 5 miles

 

[The Italian]

So this box doesn't even include an LSD?

 

[K-Tec Racing]

also when looking at the cars that have one ; there are no engine-mounts as you know them. The engine bolts straight to the chassis (mounts but stiff) to eliminate all engine-movement or else it would come out of gear a lot. Also you need to alter engine management to cut out the engine during shifts.

I think when having this (engine resonance/vibes/rough ride) on a road car it will be very very annoying after the "wow' factor has gone after 5 miles

We fitted this box to our car using the standard mounts (albeit our uprated group N mounts) so we did not have any vibration issues and the engine management does not need to be altered to carry out flat shifts, you simply need to wire in a box of tricks that comes with the gearbox.

No, there is no LSD in this box but a Sadev unit can be installed.

David.

 

[Fred@BTM]

you sell official group N mounts?

 

[Tucker]

I think they are group N style mounts Fred

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=2655

 

[Richard Dawkins]

and they DON'T improve performance,

Sorry to drag up this thread but i was searching google and came across it.

This seems a very strange quote. They might not improve performance over an H pattern dog box, but is that what you really mean? It sounds like you mean they dont imrpove performance over a standard JC5 box. Please explain.

There also appears to be a group of people who claim that dog boxes and sequential dog boxes are some how unreliable, or more prone to break than a standard synchromesh road box. To me this is a strawman argument. Maybe you dont mean this? Perhaps you could explain what i think are misleading statements.

Maybe these people would like to explain how the sequntial gearbox in a car is any different to a sequential gearbox in a motorbike? I dont see sports motorbikes having gearbox rebuilds every 1500 miles.

I would also like someone to explain, why they think you cant drive a dog box on the road. Apart from having to wait a few seconds to engage first from neutral, and getting a clunk on selection of first, from my experience when moving, there is no difference in the feel of a synchromesh gearbox and a dog engagement. Most people wouldnt even know it was a dog box.

I would be interested to have a dialogue on the issue if anyone is willing to debate with me. I feel this thread has many misleading and untruthful statements.

 

[Craigus]

Welcome to Cliosport, where misinformed opinions are created.

 

[p@blo]

If it was circa £4k inc vat it'd be a sensible buy, but they're marketing this box towards idiots with more money than sense and even less mechanical knowledge!!

Lol

I would be interested to have a dialogue on the issue if anyone is willing to debate with me. I feel this thread has many misleading and untruthful statements.

Kudos to you Richard, nice post.

 

[ThereIsOnlyMe]

It sounds like you mean they dont imrpove (sic) performance over a standard JC5 box. Please explain.

gear ratios are closer.

I suspect this is the reason that the gearbox makes the car accelerate quicker. Much more of a factor than shaving tenths off the shift time. Wouldn't a gear kit for the standard box achieve much the same result?

For the record I've got nothing against this gearbox, or Ktec. They know their shizzle, no doubt. I'm just sayin'.

I'd rather have an ATB anyway :rasp:.

 

[Andyman]

I used to get those official Renault magazines sent though and and in a feature, sure it said ph1 Cup racers were hitting 0-100 in 10 seconds, with only a blueprinted engine and sequential box

 

[Richard Dawkins]

I used to get those official Renault magazines sent though and and in a feature, sure it said ph1 Cup racers were hitting 0-100 in 10 seconds, with only a blueprinted engine and sequential box

Indeed, that seems like a performance improvement to me, althought you have to factor in the slick tyres and slightly less weight.

 

[franx]

so, conclusive:
No power increase, performance increase yes

 

[Richard Dawkins]

Well i was more interested in the comments about the rebuilds and the cost of running the box. Its fairly obvious it offers advantages over a synchromesh box in terms of performance.

 

[rob_clio197rs]

I used to get those official Renault magazines sent though and and in a feature, sure it said ph1 Cup racers were hitting 0-100 in 10 seconds, with only a blueprinted engine and sequential box

i went to santapod last year and there was a ex clio cup racer there with this box, it only managed a 14.0 quater mile at 98mph. either the figure given by renault was false or that car had a problem. Which i dont think it had as it was running consistant times all day and when i spoke to the owner he said it was running sweet as a nut:S

 

[Andyman]

Not sure how accurate the mag was. Sure someone on here would know the times?

Was the guy running slicks?

Still a decent time for a stock engine if you think about it especially if its running consistant as you said

 

[rob_clio197rs]

yeah race slicks, it was an ex TCR car, very good time for a stock engine, but they are stripped out not sure on the weight of the cage