Looking for advise on the best route to take for a track car - 172 cup

[3d3dman]

Hi Guy,

First real post on this forum, I am currently looking to buy a clio solely as a track car, ideally looking for a 172 cup as my research tells me as standard this car is defiantly more suited to track without costing too much compared to the trophy. I am having difficultly sourcing a good 172 cup, I am finding the general condition of many cars very poor, service history lacking etc. I did look at a track example cup but it also looked like it has seen better days.

As I am struggling with the cups I have been looking at the standard 172 cars, I would need to change out certain parts like suspension etc. has anyone ever been in the same dilemma as me as I don't know if I should wait out for a good cup or just buy a standard 172 then mod, I could even get a 197 but I hear the 172 is the better choice. If I could find a good already spec'd out track car that would be of interest. What is the 172 standard like on track without doing any mods out of interest? If anyone wants to sell there 172 Cup please get in touch - the car needs have been looked after, I am not looking for a garage queen, just something that is in good order. Any advise would be appreciated as I want to find the best base car.

 

[imprezaworks]

Buy the best car for the budget.

Yeah the cup is more focused as standard as it weighs less etc. But the aim with a track car is weight. There would be little difference once removing everything.

 

[Crybert]

The cup is a great car and I also agree with you, there's so many sheds out there. You will get a standard 172 cheaper and there's not much difference between them anyway in real world terms. Cup is special because of the lightness of it, no TC, no ABS but you can also achieve this on a non cup anyway. If you were on track you'd change the cups suspension anyway so go for a decent 172 and get ripping out things. TC and ABS might be good to have if you're a track novice anyway

 

[3d3dman]

The cup is a great car and I also agree with you, there's so many sheds out there. You will get a standard 172 cheaper and there's not much difference between them anyway in real world terms. Cup is special because of the lightness of it, no TC, no ABS but you can also achieve this on a non cup anyway. If you were on track you'd change the cups suspension anyway so go for a decent 172 and get ripping out things. TC and ABS might be good to have if you're a track novice anyway

Thanks for the comments, is there an easy way to rip out the TC and ABS on a standard 172, I have completed quite a few track days in the past so I wouldn't want ABS and TC ideally

 

[Crybert]

Take out the fuses? No idea mate, I doubt it's that difficult though. Just turn off the TC in the car and disable the fuse for the ABS should do the trick

 

[Stay Puft]

PMS A/C delete kit isn't too expensive. Cup shocks are around £100.. interior difference is just seats really.. which I assume you'll chuck out anyway.

Just buy a decent 172 and do the above if there aren't any decent cups about.

 

[masekwm]

Whats your budget? The problem is there are loads of ropey Cup's out there for about a grand, but also some crackers at the middle of the market.

 

[masekwm]

PMS A/C delete kit isn't too expensive. Cup shocks are around £100.. interior difference is just seats really.. which I assume you'll chuck out anyway.

Just buy a decent 172 and do the above if there aren't any decent cups about.

The interior is a much noisier place to be, it feels like a completely different car

 

[Crybert]

Agreed the cup is rawer but not a massive difference performance wise especially when you strip all the heavy items out of both them

 

[shiftspark]

Take out the fuses? No idea mate, I doubt it's that difficult though. Just turn off the TC in the car and disable the fuse for the ABS should do the trick

Dont take the fuses out as you interfere with brake balance front to rear, have a search on here. Cups have all the hard work such as brakes and no aircon etc but is cheaper to buy a 172 and strip it all out but can be time consuming.
Have a look at mine it could be for sale soon if I prefer my 86 on track.
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/my-172-cup-refresh-sprint-car.802759/

 

[masekwm]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RENAULT-C...565406?hash=item4d557a611e:g:BDcAAOSwdGFYvZXf For example, it's way overpriced so make the seller an offer.

 

[Crybert]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RENAULT-C...565406?hash=item4d557a611e:g:BDcAAOSwdGFYvZXf For example, it's way overpriced so make the seller an offer.

It sure is. I sold mine which was absolutely mint and just had the belts done for much less. In hindsight I should have sold it for more

And over 10k miles less

 

[bloke]

what's your budget? have got a couple of track and stripped out cars available. from msa logbooked lightweight 182 through to stripped 172s.

 

[3d3dman]

Whats your budget? The problem is there are loads of ropey Cup's out there for about a grand, but also some crackers at the middle of the market.

What would you say would be middle of the market price wise?

 

[3d3dman]

what's your budget? have got a couple of track and stripped out cars available. from msa logbooked lightweight 182 through to stripped 172s.

What are you looking to sell them for? Its difficult explaining budget as it ruins any negotiation

 

[JB21]

No 182s in budget, they're all pretty much the same when stripped, just no ABS on the 172 cup.

 

[masekwm]

What would you say would be middle of the market price wise?

£2-3k.

Mine was up for £4k but has a diff, coilovers, extra wheels, etc.

 

[JB21]

I'd just buy one already prepped if I were to do it all again, something like this...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Road-lega...606b81f&pid=100009&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=332146565406

 

[James363]

As others have said, totally depends how much time you've got, how much experience you've got and whether you want to actually build the car. My advice would be to go with a built car, since it will be cheaper in the long run, unless you actually want to do the building of it. Extra sets of wheels are a major plus, as is a diff, because the quaife is very expensive in the clio (£1000 quid for the diff alone, plus machining the crown wheel, plus fitting into the box). Also, buying a tested track car means things like bushes that will die in their first few outings on track will have been replaced, possibly with polybushes.

 

[JP83]

£2-3k.

Mine was up for £4k but has a diff, coilovers, extra wheels, etc.

And considering what yours was up for, it makes sense.
Mine has cost me more than that, in buying and converting to a track toy. That's with the car costing less than £400 to buy, and selling bits off it.

 

[3d3dman]

A track prepared car would be ideal IF it is in good order. Some of the track cars I have looked at have been wrecks

 

[masekwm]

Where are you based if I get on with my turbo I may be tempted to sell my Cup

 

[3d3dman]

Where are you based if I get on with my turbo I may be tempted to sell my Cup

Based near High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire

 

[masekwm]

I know it well as my in laws live there, I'm in Flitwick, Beds, copy of my previous advert below, but car has since had replacement bumpers and aux belt service. Coilovers would be replaced with Ktec ones and it'd have standard gearbox, but be priced to reflect that.

http://www.cliosport.net/threads/172-cup-with-quaife-b14s-£4250.799387/

If I hate the turbo that'll be for sale instead!

 

[bloke]

What are you looking to sell them for? Its difficult explaining budget as it ruins any negotiation

just need a ballpark figure, will always haggle on price but rough idea will save me giving you details on a dozen cars :wink:

boosted or na? track toy or track weapon?

 

[3d3dman]

just need a ballpark figure, will always haggle on price but rough idea will save me giving you details on a dozen cars :wink:

boosted or na? track toy or track weapon?

What is the price ?

 

[AlanWak]

I just take the fuse out to disable ABS and ESP on my 172 for Autosolos and Sprints, no problem. Two Championships won last year. The previous owner did the same with great success.

 

[James363]

By the sounds of it Bloke has many cars for sale and wants to know roughly your budget so he can only send details of the cars close to that budget. At the end of the day, if you don't like his prices, just say no and walk away. Disclosing your budget won't put his asking price up or down I wouldn't have thought.

 

[JB21]

I just take the fuse out to disable ABS and ESP on my 172 for Autosolos and Sprints, no problem. Two Championships won last year. The previous owner did the same with great success.

This ^

I've done a few TD's with no ABS with good results, can get a little hairy braking from higher speeds (100+) though.

 

[JamesBryan]

just need a ballpark figure, will always haggle on price but rough idea will save me giving you details on a dozen cars :wink:

boosted or na? track toy or track weapon?

What is the price ?

Are you daft? @bloke will have cars from £2k to £10k.

Asking 'what is the price' is very vague. You wouldn't walk into a dealership and say 'i want a car, what is the price'.

 

[AlanWak]

This ^

I've done a few TD's with no ABS with good results, can get a little hairy braking from higher speeds (100+) though.

Having thought about this area, I was suffering from the back end locking up at Castle Combe at the weekend under braking. I put it down to soft front shocks unweighting the rear, but maybe it is a brake bias issue with the fuse removed. I've had similar at other Sprints. The car is fine on the road with the ABS having saved me a few times from people driving in front of me.

However I have forgotten to remove the fuse on the first test of an Autosolo and have sailed past cones which I should have turned round! I can stop the car way quicker with the ABS disconnected on Autosolos, but they're relatively low speed.

Damn, this means that I have to do some testing now to see whether the fuse is better in or out when on track. The fuse will definitely be staying out for Autosolos.

One side effect of removing the fuse - it disables the speedo so I have no idea what speed I'm doing on events. I might scare myself! What does 7k rpm in 4th translate in to in mph?

 

[JamesBryan]

Don't remove the fuse.

It makes the bias 50/50 iirc, you'll swap ends under high speed heavy braking.

 

[AlanWak]

Don't remove the fuse.

It makes the bias 50/50 iirc, you'll swap ends under high speed heavy braking.

This is what I'd like to test - will the rear end imbalance still enable me to brake harder than having the ABS active? The car felt imbalanced under braking but nowhere near swapping ends. With ABS I fear that I'd still be trying to slow sufficiently when I've reached my turn in point. With ABS I may have to brake earlier to scrub off the necessary speed.

ABS is great for the road when you don't know what will happen due to somebody else's poor driving. But I've proved that I can stop the car way faster when I'm alert without ABS from moderate speeds. The imbalance is only noticeable when going a lot faster.

But back to the OP, if I was building a track var without having to meet Blue Book regs then I'd get rid of the ABS and go Cup set up. I'll be keeping mine as is and will continue to remove the fuse as I know it suits the events I enjoy. I don't expect that I'll be doing any more Sprints as they're poor value in terms of seat time.

As an asides, my ex-works 205 GTi (D666 CVC) was great with more braking screwed to the back, far more controllable on gravel with the back end already a little unsettled under braking. It was amazing the unexpected turns I could get round with this set up.

 

[3d3dman]

Are you daft? @bloke will have cars from £2k to £10k.

Asking 'what is the price' is very vague. You wouldn't walk into a dealership and say 'i want a car, what is the price'.

All dealerships have prices , every car has a unique price. A ball park price would be fine, just let me know what you want . Like I said I could buy a 197 so that gives you a clue, that does not mean a 172 is worth the same money however I am realistic and willing to spend the right amount of money for the right car.

 

[imprezaworks]

Think it's more.

Hi i've got 2500-3000 to spend what ya got?

Hi mate ive got this 1998 clio 1.4rt 5dr with a cage?

Nah.

Something like that. But Carl i'm sure would have something to suit. good luck with the search

 

[JB21]

Having thought about this area, I was suffering from the back end locking up at Castle Combe at the weekend under braking. I put it down to soft front shocks unweighting the rear, but maybe it is a brake bias issue with the fuse removed. I've had similar at other Sprints. The car is fine on the road with the ABS having saved me a few times from people driving in front of me.

However I have forgotten to remove the fuse on the first test of an Autosolo and have sailed past cones which I should have turned round! I can stop the car way quicker with the ABS disconnected on Autosolos, but they're relatively low speed.

Damn, this means that I have to do some testing now to see whether the fuse is better in or out when on track. The fuse will definitely be staying out for Autosolos.

One side effect of removing the fuse - it disables the speedo so I have no idea what speed I'm doing on events. I might scare myself! What does 7k rpm in 4th translate in to in mph?

Yeah its the high speed braking zones mate that are the tricky ones with the ABS disabled, especially if you like to trail brake. I've done Aintree a few times now with no ABS and braking from 120 mph on the back straight is squeaky bum time, but it just takes a little getting used to, funny really as sometimes you don't even realise your locking up at the rear until you see a bloom of smoke in your mirrors. My speedo didn't disable, maybe due to mine being ABS related issues not actually pulling the fuse, but in 4th at redline on a standard engine you'll be doing between 100-105 mph depending on how light you car is. Here's a video from my mates 6MPS at Aintree following mine with no ABS, looks quite dramatic when locking up but from my car (below) you cant really tell its locking at all....

 

[JamesBryan]

This is what I'd like to test - will the rear end imbalance still enable me to brake harder than having the ABS active? The car felt imbalanced under braking but nowhere near swapping ends. With ABS I fear that I'd still be trying to slow sufficiently when I've reached my turn in point. With ABS I may have to brake earlier to scrub off the necessary speed.

ABS is great for the road when you don't know what will happen due to somebody else's poor driving. But I've proved that I can stop the car way faster when I'm alert without ABS from moderate speeds. The imbalance is only noticeable when going a lot faster.

But back to the OP, if I was building a track var without having to meet Blue Book regs then I'd get rid of the ABS and go Cup set up. I'll be keeping mine as is and will continue to remove the fuse as I know it suits the events I enjoy. I don't expect that I'll be doing any more Sprints as they're poor value in terms of seat time.

As an asides, my ex-works 205 GTi (D666 CVC) was great with more braking screwed to the back, far more controllable on gravel with the back end already a little unsettled under braking. It was amazing the unexpected turns I could get round with this set up.

As standard i think it's something like 80/20 braking, so you are relying on your front brakes to do most of the work. When it's at 50/50 the effort is now shared, so if you had some decent pads also in the rear, then in theory you should be able to stop quicker with the slight downside of it being a bit unstable.

 

[JamesBryan]

All dealerships have prices , every car has a unique price. A ball park price would be fine, just let me know what you want . Like I said I could buy a 197 so that gives you a clue, that does not mean a 172 is worth the same money however I am realistic and willing to spend the right amount of money for the right car.

So let's say your budget is £4-5k.

 

[James363]

OP just give him a budget. He's not going to try and screw you, as there's an amount you're prepared to spend, and an amount he's prepared to let a car go for. If your budget doesn't buy you as much car as you were expecting, walk away. It is as simple as that, and saves him wasting his time writing a report on loads of cars that are above and below your budget!

 

[JB21]

f**k it off Carl, sounds like more hassle than it's worth.