My 172 Cup Track Car Project

[steviekyle13793]

Hi, I'm Steve, as you can probably tell by my username. Just wanted to clear that up as I regularly get called Kyle and it's quite annoying 😂

A little bit about me:
I'm 24
CNC horizontal miller
Massive love for all things car related

For the last 6 years since passing my test I've only went 9 months without a Clio Sport. These 9 months where when I owned my Audi RS5. I know people say Renault are renowned for being unreliable but that Audi, Jesus Christ. There is a reason it only lasted 9 months! Just over 3 months of this was spent in Audis workshop. 2 x gearbox failures, 2 x ECU failures and a Suspension System failure resulted in 5 courtesy cars:
VW Toureg
Audi A6
Audi A3
Audi Q2 - Arguably the ugliest car I have ever driven
Audi Q3

I completed my 2nd Euro Trip (Details of the 1st are mentioned below) in the RS5 and surprisingly all was fine. I loved the car, it was a monster yet so refined. Just a shame I couldn't rely on it getting me to work.

I've owned a handful of other cars such as an Audi A6 Avant, Toyota Yaris T-Sport, Fiat Punto, Clio DCI 80 and I'm back in a Clio Sport ... again 🙈

I'm now on to my 5th Clio Sport and here goes my first attempt at a build thread:

My Clio history consists of:
Black Gold 182 - I don't think I could have hated a single car any more than this one if I tried. I think the only reason I didn't set fire to it is due to it being my first car. Long story short, I decided to do a Euro Trip consisting of Amsterdam, Nurburgring, Munich, Innsbruck, Vaduz, Interlaken, Geneva, St. Louis, Luxembourg City and all of the twisty mountain roads in between, (Passo Del Rombo, Stelvio Pass and the Susten Pass to name a few). No sooner had I left Innsbruck and one of my rods decided it wanted to wave Hello to everyone in Austria. After months and months of phonecalls between my insurer and the breakdown company my car was eventually brought home. Probably one of the most painstaking, tedious and frustrating of situations I've ever been in. Luckily I was with a friend and continued the trip in his car whilst I ditched mine on the Timmelsjoch Pass amongst a herd of horny bulls. How do I know they were horny you ask ... ? I'm just assuming by the sticky substances on my car and all of the scratches. I think I have some photos of these big hairy b*stards somewhere.

It was relatively standard other than:
ITG Maxogen
Recaro Trendlines
PMS solid top mounts / strut brace

Arctic Blue 182 - Spec is quite large:
Forged engine pushing out 345bhp
Adaptronic ECU
02m 6 speed gearbox with Quaiffe LSD
Mocal oil cooler
PMS upper engine mount
Magnecor HT leads
AST 5100 coilovers
PMS solid top mounts and strut brace
Whiteline RARB
Corbeau pro series system 5 carbon bucket seats with Sabelt 6 point harnesses
Standalone fuel system with Bosch 044 fuel pump, Walbro 255 in tank pump
Battery relocated to boot
Half roll cage
Braided brake lines
Ferodo DS1.11 pads
Sabelt wheel
Momo boss
Depo boost gauge with oil pressure, oil temp and voltmeter
AEM wideband air/fuel ratio gauge
CM Composites splitter and canards
Loackable aerocatches bonnet and boot
FK Euro rear lights
Probably some more I have missed. It had the old Clio Turbo treatment so this car eventually got broken for parts after breaking down on 3 out of 3 trackdays.

182 Trophy - Not one of my proudest cars, but one of my most profitable:
I decided to sell the Trendlines, Sachs and Turinis which resulted in the car owing me almost nothing. It was on 130,000 miles when I bought it and I figured it had lost the majority of its Trophy appeal. However, this is just one car I never really fell in love with unfortunately. I only owned it for around 4 months before doing a PX deal on my second Black Gold 182 (See below).
Spec:
Ramair induction
Half cage
Corbeau pro series system 5 (I kept these from the Turbo build)
Braided brake lines
ASH silicone water hose kit
CM Composites splitter and canards
OMP wheel
Powerflex yellow upper engine insert

172 Cup - (The car the thread is designed around)
I bought this for £1,000 with only 75,000 miles on. Absolute steal considering the mileage in my eyes. I will talk more on this throughout the thread ...

Black Gold 182 v2 - This is my current daily, I done a swap for my Trophy and it has a really nice road going spec:
Bilstein B14 coilovers
Full Powerflex polybush kit
Recaro Trendlines
Ktec induction kit
Braided brake lines
Whiteline RARB
Sabelt wheel
Cup splitter
Brake ducts in place of foglights
OZ F1s in 16"
Trophy rep spoiler
Scorpion exhaust
Only 78,000 miles too. I'm in love with it!

Right, now to the purpose of the thread, my Clio 172 Cup:
I bought this a few weeks back with the intention of building another big spec Clio, although this time staying N/A due to the amount of teething problems I had with the turbo build. My long term plans are to go for cams and throttle bodies but I believe the term is 'slowly slowly catch the monkey'.

When I bought the Cup it was already stripped out and had been painted black inside, with a rattle can I presume judging by the finish. The wiring loom has been cut by no other than this guy:

When I say the Airbag ECU was chopped out I literally mean chopped out. The loom is almost an inch thick and it has a straight slice through it, god knows what was used to get though it, a Samurai sword perhaps?

Loose electrical wires all over the car, the custom made subframes are something to behold. I will get some pictures next time I'm over the garage. Hazard switches, heaters etc were all cable tied to the dash and literally looked a mess. However, it wasnt all doom and gloom:
2 x Cobra Monaco Sport seats
2 x TRS 4 point harnesses
Sparco flat bottom steering wheel

Now then, I never bothered to get photos of the below as I only thought of making this build thread a few days back. Over the last few weeks the car has sat in the garage whilst I start to order parts for it, I firstly started with the brakes.
Front and rear PBS pads
Brembo HC front discs
Genuine renault rear discs
Rear disc spacers as one of mine snapped when removing due to being seized on
New pad fitting kits

Then I fitted 4 new spark plugs along with my Magnecor red HT leads.

Now, this is where the pictures started to come in and shall continue to do so ... (I will start a new message as I believe you can only add 10 images to each message, correct me if i'm wrong ... ?)

 

[steviekyle13793]

As mentioned earlier, the car sat in the garage for a while whilst I waited on delivery on a handful of parts:
The parts that have arrived is as follows:
AST 5100 coilovers from @Stu.
Oil catch tank
PMS solid engine mount kit (dogbone, upper gearbox and upper engine)
1.2 manifold heatshield which helps to cover brake fluid resevoir and a PH1 indicator stalk from @Stuiemc
2L of Supergold brake fluid from none other than @George@RTR_Parts
R022 Safety Devices full roll cage
Lockable aerocatches
PMS stud and nut kit

Parts I'm still waiting on are:
Roll centre correction hubs from @NorthloopCup
Full internal braided brake line kit with Tilton Bias valve from Pro-Line Motorsport
AST solid top mounts, Mocal 13 row oil cooler with sandwich plate, 4 x AD08r fitted to some Team Dynamic Pro Race 1.2 from @JKING3008

It was nice to find some other goodies that I had earlier missed, such as Powerflex black series dogbone mount insert and upper engine insert. Also some KTEC solid top mounts. The Powerflex mounts have sold already but the KTEC solid top mounts will be available once I have fitted my AST top mounts.

Fitting the PMS engine mount kit is a real pain to do by yourself! Having to line the bolt holes up with one hand by using a jack and pulling on the engine and tightening with the other can be a little tedious. I lost count how many times I dropped bolts from top to bottom.

The cage was due to be fitted last week but has been put on the back burner for a little while due to the lad who is fitting it being stoved off with work due to the time of year. Booooooooo!

 

[steviekyle13793]

Turns out I do have a couple of pictures of the brakes being done, they are in desperate need of a spruce up so this is now in the pipeline:

My issue with the rear disc spacers can be seen above. New ones were ordered and fitted.

 

[steviekyle13793]

Finally, some pictures of the car in its current, sorry a*sed looking state!

 

[Stuiemc]

Canny little read that Kyle! Looking forward to seeing how the cup turns out, give me a shout if you ever need a hand with anything.

 

[imprezaworks]

Lol at deleting my posts, it was light hearted fun.

Hope the future plans go well.

 

[steviekyle13793]

The Clio has took a back seat over the last week or so whilst I've been giving the garage a new lease of life.

This is the size if the task I had ahead of me, I wasn't really sure where was best to start to be fair:

I decided to try and get rid of as much junk as I could with a visit to the tip, which basically made room for the Safety Devices cage the eagle eyed among you will have noticed in the above game of spot the difference.

Next, move everything to the centre of the garage and begin painting the walls white, this should help brighten the place up a little ...

Then I decided to let a mate of mine have a go at making a feature wall, he loves his art and it helps give the garage a bit of character so nobody's a loser I guess. This is what we have agreed on, it's not finished yet so more to follow ...

 

[t90_lle]

Nice car, look forward to seeing the art piece.

 

[steviekyle13793]

A little bit of an update, I've now managed to build my work bench and tyre rack, to get an idea on size I'm 6ft 7" tall.

I'm quite proud of what I've built as this is my first time working with wood. I applied the same logic used in my day job of machining, 'Measure twice, cut once' and couldn't really go wrong.

 

[steviekyle13793]

Next up, a few photos of the roll cage which was fitted yesterday. This is a full cage from Safety Devices (R022).

I had a friend weld in some box sections with nuts welded in place underneath so the cage can be removed quite easily when it comes to painting the interior.

I'm unsure what to do with the frame around the steering column though. As you can see it has been partially cut to allow fitment of the cage, do people just remove this entirely or ... ?

 

[Darren61]

Your car history is very interesting and love the new Cup.

Great progress on the garage too!

 

[steviekyle13793]

@Darren61 Yeah I've tried a few different types of cars and always find myself back in a Clio. I feel there's too much to go wrong nowadays with newer cars and fixing them is nowhere near as easy as the nuts and bolts of a Clio. Having to use computers to rewind pistons on Audi brake calipers is just stupid.

I was down Cadwell Park yesterday with a few friends, had a 182 and a 200 out on track. My last track day was December and my next one can't come soon enough so it's given me the kick up the arse to get mine finished off.

 

[Jamess182]

Awesome write up mate, read the whole thing and made me laugh in a few places. Nice work on the clio too, starting to really come along!

 

[steviekyle13793]

@James172C

Appreciate the kind words mate. I tried to add a little comedy to make it a little easier to read, rather than pounding through essays which would bore me writing them never mind other people reading them 😂

Still a long way to go with the Cup but its starting to have a bit more of a race car look rather than a shed 🙈

 

[AdamCup]

I'm unsure what to do with the frame around the steering column though. As you can see it has been partially cut to allow fitment of the cage, do people just remove this entirely or ... ?

I've left mine fitted at its used to support the loom and upper dash if you're keeping it.

 

[steviekyle13793]

@AdamCup

You got any photos you wouldn't mind sharing matey?

 

[AdamCup]

@AdamCup

You got any photos you wouldn't mind sharing matey?

https://www.cliosport.net/threads/long-term-track-car-project.798764/page-3#post-11590632

 

[steviekyle13793]

A quick test of the internal braided brake line kit with Tilton lever bias valve from Mitch at Pro Line Motorsport before drilling holes in to the car.

Genuinely can't fault the quality of the kit, I opted for the carbon fibre look lines with the bulkhead fittings.

Here are a few photos of the mock up in the house, I might see if I can get them fitted over the weekend if the weather plays ball :blush:

 

[josh11490]

A quick test of the internal braided brake line kit with Tilton lever bias valve from Mitch at Pro Line Motorsport before drilling holes in

Do you know if he makes kits for other cars?

 

[steviekyle13793]

Yeah most cars I believe mate. What you after one for? I will give him a shout now :blush:

 

[steviekyle13793]

Another update:

Had a good few hours with the car yesterday, my plan was to remove the front hubs in preparation for my roll centre kit due this week from @NorthloopCup

This is the first time I've removed the hubs so I was just kind of making it up as I went along, however, a while ago I changed a set of front shocks and popped the passenger driveshaft out and ended up with gearbox oil everywhere! It took longer to clean up than it did to change the shocks! So, I decided to drop the box oil and thought I might as well drop the engine oil whilst I'm at it. They were both absolutely black!!!

Gearbox oil:

Engine oil:

Off came the brake calipers, I just removed the brake line from the caliper as I'm soon to fit the kit mentioned above from Pro Line Motorsport.

Then on to the hubs, it was pretty much all easy going apart from the passenger side track rod end. The nut was just spinning the ball joint even with an impact gun so out came my go to tool when something is playing hard to get ... Mr Angle Grinder with a 1mm cutting disc 😂 20 seconds later it was off.

Angle grinder 347 - 0 stupid annoying bolts

Anyways, off came the hubs:

This is where my OCD kicked in, not all bad though, I guess it will help when reassembling ...

To be fair, most bolts will be replaced anyways when rebuilding but at least I know what is what.

I decided to take the rear shocks and springs off too as I still had a bit of spare time and they're now all up for sale if anyone is interested ... ? (Front and rear shocks and springs) I also removed the front KTEC solid top mounts (which are also for sale) as I have my AST solid top mounts waiting to be fitted :blush:

I got a quick photo just before I dropped the garage door down of the Cup looking sorry for itself ...

 

[Louis]

Great update mate.

Top tip on TRE'S, shove a trolley jack under them, stops them spinning!

 

[Clio_fool]

Well you've gone through a lot of cars in not a lot of time! Current BG looks nice and the cup project a serious effort, which one will we see at CSF?

 

[donnylad]

another great thread, I really need to sort one myself!

 

[steviekyle13793]

Great update mate.

Top tip on TRE'S, shove a trolley jack under them, stops them spinning!

Yeah a mate mentioned that to me when it was too late 😅 I didn't mind too much as they're getting replaced anyways but its a good thing to learn ha

Well you've gone through a lot of cars in not a lot of time! Current BG looks nice and the cup project a serious effort, which one will we see at CSF?

Yeah I've had my fair share haha, I get itchy feet when it comes to cars, the Cup is 100% staying, the BG, well we will see ha. When is CSF?

another great thread, I really need to sort one myself!

I've always thought this with mine, especially the turbo build I done. Decided this would be the one I eventually get my finger out haha

 

[Clio_fool]

https://www.cliosport.net/threads/cliosport-festival-2018-book-tickets-track-time-now.814673/

 

[steviekyle13793]

Ah awesome, August! I'm aiming to have the majority of the work done by the end of June on the Cup so I can have a shakedown track day before I head to the Ring on the 10th July.

Then I'm heading back there end of September so I guess CSF could be an excuse for another pre-ring shakedown

 

[steviekyle13793]

Arguably the worst job I've done on a Clio to date is removing the ECU bracket. That thing is f*cking tight!

Once it was off I started to address the disgusting wiring I mentioned back in the 1st post. I began by removing all of the loom tape which is literally a job in itself, it can be quite time consuming. I found the best way was to go at it lightly with a Stanley blade and just splice away. I had no intention of reusing the loom tape so just the easiest way possible would suffice.

With a lot of persuasion it eventually came off, to my relief ... 🙈 my top tip for anyone who needs to do this: Prise, prise and prise again. It you think you're prising too hard, stop being a pussy and prise harder!

Now this is when things start to get messy. The first stage of stripping down the wiring loom, I'm just keeping it quite simple for now. So far I've removed the below from the loom:
- Front fog lights
- Radio
- Steering wheel stalk controis
- Dash clock
- Airbags
- Alarm

Below is just some of what I have cut out of the loom.

Im currently in stuck between a rock and a hard place however. My intention was to remove the doors to make it easier splitting the door looms. All I need to retain is the power to the lock, the rest can all go. I'm currently speaking to CMComposites about a few panels so I was just going to remove my doors and sell them on/chuck them. Now this is where I'm stuck, I only have a single garage so I can't open the doors wide enough to get access to remove them and its still up on axle stands and can't be lowered until I fit a few other bits, I'm not giving too much away so that's all your getting until my next update 😂

It will also give me a bit more room to work inside the car with the loom if the doors are removed as it means I can just sit on the sill. I'm 6ft7" so working in a single garage with a car in with a full roll cage inside quite often leads to an unwanted game of twister 😂😂😂

Anyways, I'm kind of stuck really until I get a few parts delivered on Monday and get the car back on its wheels, wheel it out, doors off then wheel back in.

Oh, I also nearly forgot to mention my stupid moment. I dropped my passenger side headlight, the adjuster snapped internally and the bottom bracket snapped!

We're now up to date, it's unlikely that the garage will even get opened again until Tuesday or so at the earliest whilst I wait for a few deliveries.

One delivery which did show up though is the Roll Centre Correction Kit from @NorthloopCup ... it's fantastic! I've already ordered 2 new genuine Renault bearings but I'm going to hold off on fitting them for a few weeks. My thinking being that I want to fit them quickly to move the car to get the doors off then push it back in the garage, hubs back off, send away for blasting/powder coating and then get the bearings fitted. I'm a little hesitant about putting brand new wheel bearings in to a powder coating oven 😂

 

[Krarl]

What's wrong with being called Kyle like?

Are you Kyle-ist or something?:sweat:😂 (My name is Kyle for those that don't know...)

 

[Jamess182]

Nice work mate. Those roll centre kits are a huge investment but look awesome!

 

[steviekyle13793]

What's wrong with being called Kyle like?

Are you Kyle-ist or something?:sweat:😂 (My name is Kyle for those that don't know...)

Haha nothing wrong with it other than the fact it isn't my name 😂

Nice work mate. Those roll centre kits are a huge investment but look awesome!

Yeah they've knocked me back a couple of quid but I can't wait to see what all the fuss is about. They're very highly regarded.

 

[Louis]

Why was it so difficult to remove? It's literally 1 usually broken hook on top and 2 10mm (iirc) bolts at the bottom of the ecu bracket?

 

[steviekyle13793]

I read a couple of threads on how to remove it on here and everyone was saying it was a pain to remove. I stupidly thought 'How hard can it be?'

I ended up bending it pretty badly to eventually get it off, luckily the bracket won't be getting refitted.

 

[steviekyle13793]

Today's delivery, I'm expecting a lot more tomorrow 🙈

Hopefully the post man doesn't let me down.

 

[steviekyle13793]

The last few days have been hectic, I'm currently working backshift this week so a 2pm start meant that if I wanted to make any progress I needed a few early starts. I got a good 3 - 4 hours in every day so made a good bit of progress.

I had quite a large delivery from RPD:
2 x Front wheel bearings with new hub nuts
2 x Inner tie rods
5L of type D coolant (I already have 5L + so was just topping up the inventory)
2 x Rear hub nuts
Gearbox sump plug and washer
Engine sump plug and washer
2 x Wishbones

I forgot to take photos of these but I will get them as and when I fit them.

Another couple of deliveries came in the shape of a PMS shifter, please excuse the poor photo, I didn't want to remove it from the packaging for it to get thick of dirt in the garage whilst awaiting fitting:

A delivery from KAM Racing also arrived containing:
Powerflex black series inner and outer ARB bushes
Powerflex black series rear upper shock mounts
Powerflex black series rear beam mounts
Powerflex camber bolts
Can of ACF-50 to protect the ASTs once fitted

So, with the deliveries out of the way, I began to get stuck in. I first started with the inner tie rods and I decided to buy a tool from Halfords and modify it to suit, it worked a treat!

This allowed me to get a good swing on the end of the spanner and they came off with no issues. On went the replacements, those rubber boots are a nightmare to replace, many swear words later they were fitted and secured with a cable tie.

I then moved on to the ARB bushes, this is when the fun began ...

I'm sure as many of you will know, the inner ARB bushes are stupendously difficult to change. I had a go and I literally couldn't do it, I couldn't get enough leverage against the bar to secure the bush in place so I decided to drop the subframe and do them on the floor.

The next problem, the subframe ... Or should I say the captive nuts on the subframe. Wow! The 1st one came out as if it was brand new, champion I thought. In short, I couldn't have been more wrong, the other 3 were removed with the angle grinder. I undone the pinch bolt for the steering column and dropped the rack off with the subframe. I removed all the PAS pipes as they aren't needed with me going EPAS and traced them all the way back around to the PAS pump and PAS reservoir, they're now in a big black bag! The PAS pump is still in place as I havent had a chance to remove it yet, it wont be getting driven for a while anyways so no major rush, I will get a shorter belt ordered and remove it when I get a chance. Anyways, with the subframe free I pulled it from underneath the car and my OCD came to light.

... must ... clean ... immediately

It was absolutely minging as can be seen in the photos and I'm now looking at getting it blasted and painted, I figured whilst I'm there I might as well send off the subframe support brackets, subframe support bars, ARB and I'm going to get the rear beam off over the weekend if I get time. I also have a rusty looking Whiteline RARB sitting at the back of the garage which I may get cleaned up too.

As some of the eagle eyed may have noticed, the ARB ends have been sanded back and sprayed black (at this point I wasn't planning on removing the subframe so gave them a quick tidy up).

I'm about to order an engine crane, stand and load leveller from SGS Engineering and tackle removing the engine and box (the box is being sent away to be fitted with some more goodies). I've never done this before and with limited space in the garage I feel I may be in for a rough ride but I can only try. With work I regularly lift jobs ranging from 20kg - 3tonne with a crane in to awkward positions so that isn't really a problem, it's just remembering where everything goes. I've took a good handful of photos to help when refitting. I'm going to give the engine and box a nice fresh lick of paint when they're out as they're a bit of an eyesore.

As can be seen in the photos below I've also covered up the loose plugs and labelled them so I know where they need to go back to, although I am toying with removing the loom entirely to aid with trimming it down.

I'm looking forward to getting everything cleaned up and painted, not so much for cosmetics as it's a track car not a show car. My main purpose is to have a clean(ish) car to work on in future, rather than being elbow deep in grime every time I touch a bolt.

 

[Krarl]

Yeah it'd be a good idea to weld them captives too, might as well and then you wont swear as much next time hahaha

 

[steviekyle13793]

Today the rear beam came out along with the mounting plates/brackets. Once again I must say, what a terrible design those captive bolts are! 4 or the 6 bolts had to be cut out.

@dCi_rep - I plan on replacing every captive bolt with a simple nut and bolt, I honestly can't understand why these weren't used in the first place? I also plan on heatshrinking all external exposed threads to keep them clean. I think that is the main issue when it comes to the captive bolts, the external thread getting full of scrap and rusting over. Anything that can be done to help with maintenance on the car is always a good thing haha

 

[steviekyle13793]

I'm now a few weeks behind with updates so here we are:

I'm sure the previous owner used to park this car in the sea overnight. Here is the rear beam, I also removed the mounting brackets that attach to the chassis and ground the brake pipe brackets off as they won't be needed anymore. Saving weight wherever I can!

Seeing everything in such a horrible, ginger/rusty state annoyed me so I filled the daily up and dropped a load of parts off to my local powdercoaters. I gave them:
Subframe
Subframe braces
Rear beam
Front anti roll bar and bush brackets
Driveshafts (Shot blasting only)
Roll centre correction hubs (Shot blasting only)
The *Rust*line RARB that can be seen in the photos wasn't done, although it does need it. Maybe at a later date ...

I told them I wasn't in any particular hurry so in the mean time I tackled removing the engine and gearbox. This was my first time (that's what I tell all the girls anyways) - removing an engine and box but it was pretty straight forward.

However, I didn't have the space to store it in my single garage so I had to put it in a mates garage, how did I get it there I hear you ask ... queue the pussy wagon ...

I got hold of a mates Suzuki Wagon R, quite possibly the most hideous looking thing I've ever laid eyes on but it done the trick! I've put it in my mates garage for now on my new engine stand ...

 

[steviekyle13793]

Next up:
I've been in talks with @NorthloopCup for a number of weeks now and finally took the plunge in purchasing a Gripper Diff for my box. I dropped it off to Mark earlier this week and he's going to fit the diff, general overhaul and also fit a Megane 5th gear.

I was originally planning on posting the gearbox down to Mark as he's a 6 hour round trip from me, however, when I seen the cost of postage for a gearbox on a pallet I was a little bit put off. I had already packaged it up at this point so wasn't sure what to do ...

Then, I noticed a for sale thread on here, @Matt555 for sale thread in particular. He had numerous composite panels up for sale and I figured if I made a round trip out of it that it would work out cheaper for me to do the round trip than it would be to just post the gearbox #ManMaths

So, after a long day I returned home down a gearbox, but with some new superlight panels:

Not sure what that is on the bonnet mind, swollen gentlemans sausage perhaps ... ?

 

[steviekyle13793]

I picked up my parts from the powdercoaters on Thursday and started to fit my rear beam bushes.

I then moved on to the inner anti roll bar bushes and nearly cried when I marked the fresh powder coating. Could have been worse mind!

I also have some pictures of my hubs which have just been shot blasted. I have since painted these with hammerite but haven't got round to taking any photos just yet. I still need to get photos of the subframe and other panels too but this is all I have for now, more to follow: