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Newbie flame-ball thread - Lowering = poo



Y

y0z2a



Quote: Originally posted by jon_r on 30 December 2004
Did it get any better beyond page 5?TBH, I do a lot of track work. However I like my warrenty, its my friend!! Last month my friend the warrenty saved me £850+VAT.When said warrenty runs out, I will be lowering the car on coilovers.


i understand this totally from some peoples perspective, the warranty is very important, it does not affect peoples ability to drive and enjoy driving.

/y0z
 
Y

y0z2a



my 10 pence:

i dont care what any of you say, in my garage, i have the standard set up, a fast road / track setup (Koni Adjustable dampers, Eibach SportLine springs) and Bilsten Coilovers (the ones developed by R-Sport as their group N suspension package for the 172 cup that never emerged from RSport(was the suspension set up on R-Sports Cup - the one with the super 1600 bonnet vents).

The coilovers are on the car, i am personally very happy with the set up.

To get them set up right, Corner Weighting, Ride Height, camber and alignment are the important factors.

I am happy with my set up, on Motorways, A roads, B roads and most importantly, on track. I will see how the cup racer compares when It lands.

:)

/y0z
 
Y

y0z2a



Quote: Originally posted by Willy Williams on 30 December 2004
Copy of Angling Times anyone? IMO of course.;)


calm down dear...

/y0z
 
W

Willy Williams



Just out of interest does anyone claim here to have an ideal or as near ideal setup for dry weather driving from coilovers?



Ie has anyone found the sweet spot for coilovers in the dry (in talking about road use)? Or to put it another way has anyone pushed the envolope of setup to a fairly uncompremising race type set-up?
 
Y

y0z2a



I had Griffin set up the eibachs to as close as we could get to an ideal track set up on the Konis - based on their testing on their own cars and their race cars. I havent experimented wildly with the current coilover set up, mainly as it isnt dry. :-(

I will be playing with it in the new year with camber / height, and may even sent the coilovers back to bilstein to get them to give me some better damping adjustability.

/y0z
 
T

Turkish



willy williams i think a major issue here is i very much doubt you have driven a standard 172/182 let alone any with suspension mods yet myself and yoz have driven numerous 172s with some standard and others with differing modifications and have modified and changed parts on our own and driven them extensively, me more so on the road and yoz on the track so we are in far better position to comment on whats better "OE or modified" than yourself, so with the greatest respect your educated guess at what is better doesnt carry anyway against actual experience that me, yoz and other forum users have with the cars and differeing set ups and products.
 
W

Willy Williams



Quote: Originally posted by Loony on 30 December 2004

willy williams i think a major issue here is i very much doubt you have driven a standard 172/182 let alone any with suspension mods yet myself and yoz have driven numerous 172s with some standard and others with differing modifications and have modified and changed parts on our own and driven them extensively, me more so on the road and yoz on the track so we are in far better position to comment on whats better "OE or modified" than yourself, so with the greatest respect your educated guess at what is better doesnt carry anyway against actual experience that me, yoz and other forum users have with the cars and differeing set ups and products.




Loony,

A road car is a compromise set-up for a very good reason. Namely because there are so many different conditions involved in road driving that the best setup for British roads has to be a middle ground. For this factory setup is fine for its purpose. Best in this case can be defined as the setup most likely to cope with the widest range of conditions (road surface, weather, car condition etc).

When you start messing about with car set ups to recreate racing car setups what you are in effect doing is taking that middle of the road setup approach and pushing the envelope in one direction. Setting up the car to be fast on a smooth dry track by making adjustments is fine if you are driving on a smooth dry track. But keep it on the track. Driving that car on a wet and bumpy road changes your car from one with an ideal setup to one with a completely inappropriate setup, which not only compromises speed, but also safety. And dont tell me that when it starts to rain or the road surface changes, you stop your car and take the wheels off and adjust the suspension to cope with the rain?

I have no problem acknowledging that coilovers are a tool that are ideal for the track going individual. I have no problem acknowledging that coilovers may enable improvements in lap times on tracks. What i do have a problem with is:

1. People who claim to know what they are doing when they really dont. There are a myriad of factors to consider when altering a cars setup (Apparently castor angle, toe, camber, tyre pressure, ride height, damper settings, spring adjustments, anti roll bar settings, gear ratios, wheel size, brake balance, brake size, spacer sizes are all important and interelated components). Altering the ride height alone and claiming a vast handling improvement is generalisation to the point of insanity.

2. People building race cars for the road. Race cars belong on a track. If you have a trailer and tow it to the track to race it, fine. But dont try to turn your ROAD car into a race car and use it on the road.



I dont claim to be an expert (unusual for a forum i know). I know my own limitations and as i dont have a degree in automotive engineering i will leave all adjustments to my car to the experts. Until that point i am happy to drive my car on the setup that was provided by the engineers at Renault Sport.
Click to expand...


[Edited by Willy Williams on 30 December 2004 at 1:28pm]
 
T

Turkish



Quote: Originally posted by Willy Williams on 30 December 2004


Quote: Originally posted by Loony on 30 December 2004

willy williams i think a major issue here is i very much doubt you have driven a standard 172/182 let alone any with suspension mods yet myself and yoz have driven numerous 172s with some standard and others with differing modifications and have modified and changed parts on our own and driven them extensively, me more so on the road and yoz on the track so we are in far better position to comment on whats better "OE or modified" than yourself, so with the greatest respect your educated guess at what is better doesnt carry anyway against actual experience that me, yoz and other forum users have with the cars and differeing set ups and products.




Loony,

A road car is a compremise set-up for a very good reason. Namely because there are so many different conditions involved in road driving that the best setup for British roads has to be a compremise. For this springs and shocks are fine for their purpose. Best in this case can be defined as the setup most likely to cope with the widest range of conditions (road surface, weather, car condition etc).

Fine they may be but the stock set-up has to be designed with all number of constraints in particular cost. you tell me if normally when given a problem to solve an engineer will make a "best fix" if he has a ceiling on what he can spend on materials and developement/manufacturing costs. Im not saying they are bad but youd have to be nieve to think they cant be improved upon.

When you start messing about with car set ups to recreate racing car setups what you are in effect doing is taking that middle of the road setup approach and pushing the envelope in one direction. Setting up the car to be fast on a smooth dry track by making adjustments is fine if you are driving on a smooth dry track. But keep it on the track. Driving that car on a wet and bumpy road changes your car from one with an ideal setup to one with a completely inappropriate setup, which not only compremises speed, but also safety. And dont tell me that when it starts to rain or the road surface changes, you stop your car and take the wheels off and adjust the suspension to cope with the rain?

Nobody has said that we take of wheels and change suspension depending on the weather or surface changes. I never said i was looking to nor achieved a race car like set up as a billiard table smooth racetrack is very different to the road.

I have no problem acknowledging that coilovers are a tool that are ideal for the track going individual. I have no problem acknowledging that coilovers may enable improvements in lap times on tracks. What i do have a problem with is:

1. People who claim to know what they are doing when they really dont. There are a myriad of factors to consider when altering a cars setup (Apparently castor angle, toe, camber, tyre pressure, ride height, damper settings, spring adjustments, anti roll bar settings, gear ratios, wheel size, brake balance, brake size, spacer sizes are all important and interelated components). Altering the ride height alone and claiming a vast handling improvement is generalisation to the point of insanity.

When the kit was set up by the company i used who have a vast wealth of expertise and experience in this feild they set it up to give what they felt in their exepert opinion gave the best set-up for the kind of use (predomonantly fast road) the car would be getting, if you want to argue with them or tell them they have no idea what they are doing when they have been doing this for about30 years then by all means ill give you their number.

2. People building race cars for the road. Race cars belong on a track. If you have a trailer and tow it to the track to race it, fine. But dont try to turn your ROAD car into a race car and use it on the road.

We are not talking about turning a road car into a race car if i wanted that i would sell the clio and get something better suited to track only use. all we are doing as enthusiasts is improving the limited handling to a state we feel is best for fast road and occasional track use.



I dont claim to be an expert (unusual for a forum i know). I know my own limitations and as i dont have a degree in automotive engineering i will leave all adjustments to my car to the experts. Until that point i am happy to drive my car on the setup that was provided by the engineers at Renault Sport.

I chose the product i felt i could trust due to the manufacturers reputation and long history in motorsports in the DTM and touring car series to mention but a few. They are also the company that supply the OE struts and springs to porsche for the GT3 and GT3 RS cars, they know a hell of alot about suspension and handling as do the experts that set up my car once they were on. Now are you saying that you as a "man on the street" you want to tell all of these experts plus me and numerous other people who have been in the car since it was changed and improved how totally wrong they are ?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
M

Munson



Well if nothing else, Ive learnt a fair bit about this coilover business. I totally agree that they may well improve stability (which I said in the opening post anyway) but me personally, I wouldnt be interested, not with a new car at least.

By the way guys, it takes 2 to argue - peace and goodwill to all men. I still think a lowered 182/Cup looks sh*te though :eek:
 
T

Turkish



when mine were on my old 172 it wasnt a tarmac scraper in fact most people who saw it said it looked how it should have from factory. But thats their opinion.
 
M

Munson



Quote: Originally posted by Loony on 30 December 2004when mine were on my old 172 it wasnt a tarmac scraper in fact most people who saw it said it looked how it should have from factory. But thats their opinion.
Please read back - again - and youll see that I already withdrew my comments with regard the 172, as it clearly rides quite high as standard. IMHO the 182 does not.
 
M

MikeGG



Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 30 December 2004

Well if nothing else, Ive learnt a fair bit about this coilover business. I totally agree that they may well improve stability (which I said in the opening post anyway) but me personally, I wouldnt be interested, not with a new car at least.

By the way guys, it takes 2 to argue - peace and goodwill to all men. I still think a lowered 182/Cup looks sh*te though :eek:
Click to expand...


Roy with regards to your last comment you are wronger than an incredibly wrong thing that happens to be very wrong! IMO.

http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/gallery/full/1093195504__100_0316a.jpg

My 182 lowered 40mm on Apex springs.
 
M

Munson



"wrong" In your humble opinion - as you say. Its hard for me to judge that against a standard car, but it certainly dopesnt look any better to MY eyes.
 
M

MikeGG



Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 30 December 2004

"wrong" In your humble opinion - as you say. Its hard for me to judge that against a standard car, but it certainly dopesnt look any better to MY eyes.
Click to expand...
If it doesnt look any better to you does that mean it looks worse???
 
jon_r

jon_r

  172, Tiguan


Theres no need to be unhappy.

Young man, theres a place you can go.
I said, young man, when youre short on your dough.
You can stay there, and Im sure you will find
Many ways to have a good time.

lets get to the chorus guys
 
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