No cranking - starter motor fine

[Jonny1*2]

The car has been having issues of late. It won't fire, unless you either rock it in gear (although this isn't enough now), or bump it. If it doesn't fire while bump starting, I can then turn the key and it cranks. So I figure it must be the starter. Spent yesterday removing it (fun job ), but its been tested and all is fine. There was no corrosion on either terminal, so I'm puzzled. Crank sensor maybe? Or wiring issue?

I don't get any noise from the starter. Turn key and nothing, no click, no crank. It's definitely not immobiliser. As far as I know the battery is fine and its attached to a CTEK most if the time anyway (It's a odyssey p680). I wonder if it might be something to do with the 15mm posi cable on the battery, but that's been on for months and never had an issue.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Have you tried putting a volt meter onto the solenoid and see if its actually getting sent a voltage when you try and crank or not?

If the solenoid is getting a voltage but not firing, then its the solenoid, if it isnt then its a car issue (wiring etc)

 

[Jonny1*2]

Not yet mate no. I assumed that they checked the solenoid though :s

 

[Chip-mk1]

I recently took out a starter that wasnt working, worked fine when I tested it out of the car, and the one I replaced it with worked fine in the car, which kind of rules out both the old starter being faulty and the car being faulty, but obviously one of them must be.

Cant tell you why, some sort of intermittant or heat related issue I would guess, maybe yours is the same, only faulty when warm perhaps?

 

[Jonny1*2]

I did wonder if it might be heat related as it tends to happen after a warm drive

 

[Chip-mk1]

I think that whoever "tested" it for you didnt do so properly then.

 

[Jonny1*2]

How should it be tested?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well the first thing to check would be if it fires when you give it 12v, the next is resistance but I dont have figures handy for what it should be when new I am afraid.
They probably just put 12v across and it declared it fine, which like I say is a test the one I just threw away would still pass, that was killed by heat.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Fare enough. It might not have helped as its running very hot at the mo and there is no heat shield on it. Which resistance are we talking?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Resistance of the solenoid windings, and of the starter motor windings, if its not firing the solenoid, then its that one specifically that should interest you rather than the motor.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Starter is fine, but it looks like the small wire to the solenoid is buggered. Intermittent voltage when attempting to crank. Does anyone have a wiring diagram for which relay this goes to before I start disturbing the loom

 

[Cr33do]

Ah. Cannot remember the exact relay now Jonny. To be honest there aren't that many relays in the engine fuse box. I just tested for contunuity to find ours but you might not be able to do that if the wire is dodgy.

Will see of I can find a pic

 

[Cr33do]

Ps. When you do find the relay terminal just run a new wire down to the solenoid. Hello of a lot easier than repairing the original.

 

[BIGASH]

I will try and look tonight as I ripped my wire out last night but still have the relay etc and my board is standard so should be the same as yours

 

[Jonny1*2]

Any help appreciated I just don't want to disturb Renault looms as we all know what that can lead to

 

[BIGASH]

Right mate on my car which has stock loom for all that stuff the relay for the white wire that runs to the starter goes into the middle of the 3 small brown relays in the picture

Mine is going in the bin if you need me to post you any bits?

 

[Jonny1*2]

I had a feeling it was that one. Really appreciate that James, saves me a lot of faffing. I wasn't getting much/if any power across the terminals, so the main feed might be dodgy. I'll just have to wait for a reasonable day to get out and do some searching (bloody NW weather). Oh and put the starter back . Wish I had a garage , although the wife would never see me if that was the case.lol.

Are you getting shot of all the standard harness?

 

[BIGASH]

I had a feeling it was that one. Really appreciate that James, saves me a lot of faffing. I wasn't getting much/if any power across the terminals, so the main feed might be dodgy. I'll just have to wait for a reasonable day to get out and do some searching (bloody NW weather). Oh and put the starter back . Wish I had a garage , although the wife would never see me if that was the case.lol.

Are you getting shot of all the standard harness?

No worries mate I hate wiring so i hope you get sorted its a horrible job!

No garage must be tough and I thought no ramp was bad enough lol!

Yes mate all out coming out

 

[Jonny1*2]

Tested the wire to the relay tonight, and the wire from the relay to the white plug, both show continuity. So i'm either going to put the starter back in and see if the fault has miraculously disappeared, or search back from the white plug to the UCH and barrel. Bloody wiring!

 

[Dan519]

Have you tried swapping the 3 brown relays round? sometimes all it takes to get them going once they've got a bit sticky is a tap on a hard surface

 

[Jonny1*2]

That was an option, but there car is in bits so couldn't try that yet. It clicked when given 12V though.

 

[Dan519]

just read back to your original post. I'd say still worth trying another starter, it sounds like that one doesn't have any torque output. It's easy to get one turning when it's under no load, but once it's trying to crank it gets a bit harder. Have you also got a strong full size battery?

 

[Jonny1*2]

I strapped it to a battery off the car. And no difference is spinning etc. if it was the torque output, wouldn't I still get a click as the solenoid engages?

Might be a stupid question, but could the fact it's high comp make any difference by way of strain in the starter?

 

[Dan519]

kind of my point, off the car there's no resistance so it will spin easily.

Yes high comp makes cranking harder, that's why I asked about the battery

 

[Silent_Scone]

Not only that but if you're having to rock it and the fact it's intermittent sounds like it too. Solenoid gets stuck when they get hot if its a bit worse for wear

 

[Jonny1*2]

I tried heating it and testing it, and all seemed normal. If its torque related, I assume that it's the motor only?

 

[Dan519]

What battery are you running???!!!

 

[Jonny1*2]

Sorry Dan, didn't see your post. I've got the odyssey pc680, so same size as the varley 25.

 

[Dan519]

Try a full size one

 

[Jonny1*2]

That will be a struggle, as it won't go under the seat and most of the wiring isn't available in the engine bay. I could try it though. CCA on it is 170, so I assume that would be plenty?

 

[Chip-mk1]

That should be way more than enough to turn a starter over, take the plugs out though so there is no compression and see if it will spin over then, if it wont then its certainly not a voltage/current issue.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Would disconnectiong the coil pack suffice?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Would disconnectiong the coil pack suffice?

To lower the compression?

Nut sure if SRS?


No mate, you need to remove the plugs so that there is no compression so that you can see if the starter will turn happily when there is less resistance.

 

[BIGASH]

No mate Chip is saying plugs out as then there is very little resistance for the starter to spin the crank up due to no compression, unplugging the coil pack will just not start the engine

Edit: beaten to it

 

[Chip-mk1]

Too slow fat boy, lol

 

[BIGASH]

Too slow fat boy, lol

Haha :rasp: At least my reply didn't contradict yours lol

 

[Jonny1*2]

Thought you meant remove the coils not the plugs. OK no worries. I can give that a go too

 

[Cr33do]

Follow Chipssuggestions as it could be a duff motor

Re reading your post it still sounds like you have intermittent issues with you solenoid trigger wire too. If the starter is still out of the car you could earth it (jump lead) and extend the trigger wire to the starter. Atleast then you can see and hear the solenoid throw the gear out AND this tests your loom at the same time.

Chip/Dan - does the solenoid have to throw the gear out before switching the power through to the motor?

 

[lesley]

If the solenoid doesnt fire, then the starter motor itself wont either, so a duff solenoid would stop it turning altogether.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Just refitted it, tried it as is and cranks every time. Wtf