Omex Wiring - Fred?

[Daverb]

Hey,

Could someone (Fred? ) please help me with a Omex installation on a 182. (Cable throttle).

What standard sensors can be used? Can the Omex use all of them? Map, Air, Water, Lambda, TPS, CPS? Can you just run the VVT locked?

Also ive noticed in some of your posts regarding Omex Fred that you have wiring details for each of the 17? wires. Can you PM me these?

Cheers.

 

[Fred@BTM]

crikey you don't ask for much! i've got details of installation into a 172, i "think" the 182 is the same

what you running? ITB's? or single?

 

[graham_172]

same here fred. fitting single throttle body on a 172 with omex ecu. please can I also have installation details please.

 

[fmp_]

why not ask Omex, or Omex dealer and experts in Omex installations on the clio GDI?

 

[Daverb]

Sorry Fred

Im running standard cable tb on standard manifold.

 

[mini-valver]

Gdi dont use the Map sensor to control ignition timing and dont use wideband. They map there's using the knock sensor which apparently, isnt the best way to do it. I'm not sure wether the OMEX comes with these features or not I.e if theres another way of doing it.

On my VEMS I'm using wideband and incorporating the MAP sensor for ignotion timing which is a lot better. *Waits to be corrected*

 

[Laura]

jons car has a map sensor and a wideband with his omex.

GDI are approved omex distrobuters and mappers so they are your best bet, failing that richard at OMEX, no one is going to know how to do it better than the guy that made it are they

 

[TheJesus]

Gdi dont use the Map sensor to control ignition timing and dont use wideband. They map there's using the knock sensor which apparently, isnt the best way to do it. I'm not sure wether the OMEX comes with these features or not I.e if theres another way of doing it.

On my VEMS I'm using wideband and incorporating the MAP sensor for ignotion timing which is a lot better. *Waits to be corrected*

Mine was mapped on wideband. It was mapped in accordance to how Omex would do it, which whatever they say is the way it should be done properly. I'd take their word over anyone else's on the subject given the nature of work they do and who their customers are lol

 

[mini-valver]

Dude, Andy told me that's how he does it, never uses wideband. I'm not lying!

 

[Andy GDI]

OK!

Map sensors measure pressure in the manifold and therfore engine load, on NA cars you dont need to use MAP sensors, for example throttle bodies that are mapped using throttle positon which is slightly better for response as a map sensor is reactive. An engine with forced induction of course needs a map sensor, but even then you can use throttle positon and then use the map sensor for boost compensation giving the best of both worlds (throttle response and fuel correction)

you also dont need to use wideband to run the car everyday. (90% of modern road engines dont use wideband on their ecu's)

Dave I think you missunderstand, we map the cars using wideband on the rollers. once the car is mapped we then turn on narrowband to control the area of the map that is used for normal driving that you need to keep at 14.7 AFR (or lambda 1)... (usually under 4300rpm and under 50-60% throttle - depending on the useage of the car and the type of engine)

Ignition timing is a very complex issue and I am not going to explain how this is done, a knock sensor can be used if required (usually only on turbo cars).. on NA its not necessary if its mapped correctly..

BenP, you could use a knock sensor to map the timing (but that relies on teh knock sensor being correctly calibrated and if not can seriously damage the engine)


I hope this clarifies things

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Do you intend to keep standard ecu and dashboard? If not junk the standard sensors and use the omex ones

 

[BenR]

Has Anybody actually answered his questions yet?

Add a secondary CTS into the upstream side of the thermostat housing, but weld on a bung rather than tap directly into the housing itself.

If your using a single TB setup then you can use the OEM map sensor, and you should be using the map sensor for primary load in a speed density setup, unless you have alphaN/speed density blend availability. You can also use the OEM TPS from a phs1 TB, and the phs1 idle control valve.

Stock crank angle (TDC as some call it) sensor can be used.

Control of the vvt switch is a simple lowside 12v drop and it is retarded in its resting position, i.e. completing the circut will advance the cam position.

For the injectors and coils you can just control the lowside with the new ecu and leave the stock relay system to provide 12v.

 

[Andy GDI]

use aux output 2 set to VVT mode to activate the phase shifter

 

[Tom]

Hi Guys, Me Again. How are you all?

Thanks to Fred, BenR, Greenys_meanies and of course Andy for answering the OP's questions.

The rest of you i see no reason for you to get involved as it seems fairly clear none of you either know the answers or are incapable of posting without sticking a dig or six in.
Do not say i did not warn you or make attempts to ask nicely.

Once again if this post is quoted and discussed there will be points and quite possibly bans handed out, nothing would please me more tbh.

 

[Darknight]

Does anyone know how the cam phase shifter on the 182 works? I know its a on/off only and not variable, but at what rpm is it activated? and when is it off?

Also, what trigger pattern does the 182 use? is it a motronic 60-2 signal?

Also, can we cancel the variable cam gear on the 182 and use an exhaust cam gear? If we do that, how do we set cam timing?

 

[Dan R]

jons car has a map sensor and a wideband with his omex.

GDI are approved omex distrobuters and mappers so they are your best bet, failing that richard at OMEX, no one is going to know how to do it better than the guy that made it are they

You go girl she has a point!

 

[Peter.K]

Apologies if this is hijacking the thread.

Has any body installed a motec ecu into 182 keeping the FBW, any info regarding wiring and sensors would be very much appreciated.

 

[Andy GDI]

Does anyone know how the cam phase shifter on the 182 works? I know its a on/off only and not variable, but at what rpm is it activated? and when is it off?

Also, what trigger pattern does the 182 use? is it a motronic 60-2 signal?

Also, can we cancel the variable cam gear on the 182 and use an exhaust cam gear? If we do that, how do we set cam timing?

on the std car is load based and rpm based

above 1800 rpm and (not sure exact load value) it turns on...

its a simple on and off...

its used to keep the idle smooth with the stock cams (in retarded position) and then switched off when off throttle to shut the cam overlap for emissions reasons..)

the flywheel effectively seems a 60-2


you can remove the phase shifter if you buy aftermarket cams, you cant on teh stock cams as the fitting is different.


hope this helps

Andy
Omex/GDI

 

[Ali]

Emerald or Motec ECU FTW!

 

[Andy GDI]

as far as i know no one has put a motec on a 182.

 

[Hutchie]

"link plus ecu" + ITB's = win

 

[Icarus]

Apologies if this is hijacking the thread.

Has any body installed a motec ecu into 182 keeping the FBW, any info regarding wiring and sensors would be very much appreciated.

Motec Hundred series (and possibly M4 but can't remember off the top of my head) with the DBW upgrade will run the Clio DBW throttle body properly and with decent fail safe (e.g. Primary/Secondary TPS Compare), Motec DBW4 expander will also enable it on Motec's that don't have support for DBW but it is via CAN. Pectel SQ6/6M, Magneti Marelli SRT/Marvel, Life F88 and Solaris S4C/S8 will also run the DBW body properly with fail safe.

The question is if this is road legal and the ECU suppliers will all quote Motorsport use only if asked. However several OEM road car companies are supplying new build cars with a variety of the above driving DBW throttle bodies. The use of DBW in Motorsport is also massive and I've not heard of failed fail safe yet.

End of the day anything road car based is just H-Bridge. It's not like its Moog actuated hydraulics or similar where there is quite a lot more that can cause a 'bad' failure (Including trams if you believe a certain F1 team) and as such much more to mitigate against/monitor for fail safe - you need to decide if whoever doing the work can make it fail safe and if you're able to deal with the potential consequences if it can't/doesn't. Essentially you need two good, solid and reliable TPS measurements rather than one.

Cheers
M

 

[Peter.K]

Many thanks for the input Icarus, I’ve decided to go with Motec as its Aus based.

I’ve got lots of faith in the motec man over here (aus) but his bread and butter is holdens and fords so any help from the clio community is very much appreciated, he’s doing cart wheels and can’t wait to get started as its something different.

I will defiantly be asking if its road legal or just motorsport based.

Again thanks for the input.

 

[badger5]

I run dta s60 with drive by wire on my ibiza racecar..... >500bhp race winning car in combe saloons in 2007. - 80mm dbw throttle

 

[Peter.K]

I run dta s60 with drive by wire on my ibiza racecar..... >500bhp race winning car in combe saloons in 2007. - 80mm dbw throttle

eek! not after that kind of power but if your comfortable using FBW with that many ponies then i should be well happy.

PK

 

[badger5]

eek! not after that kind of power but if your comfortable using FBW with that many ponies then i should be well happy.

PK

new spec for 2009, not raced it in 2008, was too busy and building it up again from shell to a higher spec chassis & motor.

DTA's dbw is not available to purchase I should mention, I am one of a couple of people testing them for DTA. One day it might be for motorsport use only

motec is the more established dbw ecu out there but its blindingly expensive and the features inbuilt are all extra ££ to enable.. which i dislike.

 

[Icarus]

new spec for 2009, not raced it in 2008, was too busy and building it up again from shell to a higher spec chassis & motor.

DTA's dbw is not available to purchase I should mention, I am one of a couple of people testing them for DTA. One day it might be for motorsport use only

motec is the more established dbw ecu out there but its blindingly expensive and the features inbuilt are all extra ££ to enable.. which i dislike.

Motec is cheap mate! The stuff I deal with starts at 2 grand for a bare ECU with no options and runs upto £7500 for the top spec kit.

Regarding feature set its important to note that the you're paying for the license to use the strategy not the hardware to do it.

Cheers
M

 

[badger5]

Motec is cheap mate! The stuff I deal with starts at 2 grand for a bare ECU with no options and runs upto £7500 for the top spec kit.

Regarding feature set its important to note that the you're paying for the license to use the strategy not the hardware to do it.

Cheers
M

its a relative statement i would say.. cheap it is'nt, relative to some top team ecu's it is tho. paying a license fee smarts to me personally when the cost of the hardware is the same, just disabled in software from you. With the likes of DTA you buy an ecu, its comes with everything it can do ready and working, and at a far lesser price. DTA have seen me fine since 1997 on the builds & kits I have supplied.
regards
bill

 

[Darknight]

It was mentioned that a 60-2 trigger setup in the software would work with the 182 flywheel trigger. I tried this with my ecu (haltech) and it wont pick it up. Are you guys setting up the OMEX to read a 60-2 trigger?

 

[sideways danny]

It was mentioned that a 60-2 trigger setup in the software would work with the 182 flywheel trigger. I tried this with my ecu (haltech) and it wont pick it up. Are you guys setting up the OMEX to read a 60-2 trigger?

yes. I think there's some minor changes that are needed though, I'll ask Andy to post what's different, but it think it's to do with falling and rising edge of the missed tooth

 

[Icarus]

its a relative statement i would say.. cheap it is'nt, relative to some top team ecu's it is tho. paying a license fee smarts to me personally when the cost of the hardware is the same, just disabled in software from you. With the likes of DTA you buy an ecu, its comes with everything it can do ready and working, and at a far lesser price. DTA have seen me fine since 1997 on the builds & kits I have supplied.
regards
bill

DTA is a good ECU, not knocking it at all. However the software engineering/strat development can take a good deal more time than the hardware design/development. I tend to look at it like a PC - if you want Office and a AutoCAD then it costs you extra above what the box with an OS on it cost.

Cheers
M

 

[badger5]

DTASWin software is pretty well featured, logging in-built etc, canbus now.. I run XDash also with its extra's for a whole load less £ than other systems.
Both systems have their market and followers. Both work well.
regards
bill

 

[stan*]

It was mentioned that a 60-2 trigger setup in the software would work with the 182 flywheel trigger. I tried this with my ecu (haltech) and it wont pick it up. Are you guys setting up the OMEX to read a 60-2 trigger?

Are you getting any triggering signal at all?

I would guess its due to the OE CAS giving a relatively "weak" signal. try moving it closer to the flywheel by elongating the mounting bracket holes.

 

[Icarus]

DTASWin software is pretty well featured, logging in-built etc, canbus now.. I run XDash also with its extra's for a whole load less £ than other systems.
Both systems have their market and followers. Both work well.
regards
bill

Meant the software on the ECU rather than the PC chap.

Like I said I'm not knocking DTA at all - its something I'd certainly consider using in a couple of years on X85's when they've got cheaper and need an ECU that the owner can access - DTA have just added support for the 830 cam/crank sensors used on the R3 so its very easy to stick one on an X85/C85 as required now.

Cheers
M

 

[Icarus]

Are you getting any triggering signal at all?

I would guess its due to the OE CAS giving a relatively "weak" signal. try moving it closer to the flywheel by elongating the mounting bracket holes.

I'd want to scope it first and check the signal quality and strength before getting the round files out. If it was sufficent for the standard ECU to run from then it really ought to be sufficent for an aftermarket ECU.

It'll more than likely be a configuration issue i.e. rising/falling or the CPS is wired with the wires the wrong way around or not shielded.

Cheers
M

 

[stan*]

well from experience it isnt strong enough for some aftermarket ecus, but it is for OE setup.

if its not shielded you will get interference, the rpm numbers will fluctuate rapidly, and it will run like s**t...

If the wires are the wrong way round, USUALLY you will get to around 4000 and get a limiter/misfire effect, as the signal is upside down.

The setting for this sensor type should be falling edge. Even if its on the wrong setting, you have a fifty percent of getting it right! so it wouldnt be hard to do a bit of trial and error lol.

I put my money on signal strength/CAS position.