Please Help: Design of New Induction Kit

[Saner]

Righty, I have been trying to come up with a VFM induction kit for teh K4J (1.4 16v) and K4M (1.6 16v)engines (RS owners don't stop reading!).

I have now decided to make this my Unversity final year project. I have to submit the idea to a lecturer and if he likes, it's all gravy!

I need help with my basic outline of how I can test and prove I have made a difference at the end.

What I want to achive: An increase in overall power and an increase in power across the rev range.

How I will achive it: Improve air flow, reduce air temperature

How i will prove it: This is where I need help! I know I can prove a gain in power by using a rolling road. (BTW what else to RR's measure.. A/F mixture and..?) But how can I show I have made an improvement across the rev range?

Any help would be great and also if people could help me in how I can go about doing this (the project as a whole) it would be helpfull? Any body know how I can get ahold of detailed figures of teh Engines etc.. I mean very detailed!

Any help greatly recived! Thankyou

Saner

 

[Neil G]

Try contacting Ben R on here..he's your techical expert who may be able to answer some of your questions

 

[Saner]

Have dropped him a PM so hopefuly he will have time to take a look!

Just realised I havent made clear in my last past that I need to show I have made an improvement in tranistional power, ie, from 30-50 in 3rd for example and its showing this that I not sure how to go about.

I know that alot of other factors go into making a mass produced one of these so the gain i'm looking for is not great, but i do need a gain otherwise the project will be a failure!

 

[Dan@SJM]

youve also got to consider intake length, this can have a good improvement. You dont want to move the original location, you want to keep it, and then shield it from most of the heat, and also have a cold feed for it.

 

[Dan@SJM]

you could cheat by whacking up your tyre pressures lol.

 

[George k]

The cheapest way to test IK systems is by firstly calibrating the standard system by using pressure tappings at the critical points - atmospheric, just before air filter, after air filter, just before butterfly , or anywhere else that looks obstructive - then you can analyse where the main obstruction is and work out how to remedy it. Don't forget that on standard systems the pipe into the filter is often smaller than that to the engine - the object of this is to compensate for a dirty filter.
If you go onto the Ectutek site (in Australia) you will finds links ot an Australian magazine in which they carried out similar projects on a MX5 and iirc a S4 - very interesting.
Great project - you may destroy a few myths!

 

[Saner]

this is excellent stuff so far, its good that you are echoing my thoughts, and Dan, no cheating! If all gos to plan it should be a real eye opener and i will share my results with everybody no doubt!

 

[edde]

You can get these 0-60 test thingies all you'd have to do is only rev to sat 2/3/4/5/6k and chnage up. If you have more power thoughtout the rev range the 3/4/5/6k chnage ups on the 0-60 should show a difference.

 

[George k]

The Australian magazine is AutoSpeed. What university are you at and what subject are you reading?

 

[Saner]

i'm at Portsmouth doing Computer Aided Product Design, I know that this is more the mechanics side of things but its that that i'm interested in.

edde, any idea what they are called?

also anybody able to tell me in detail how a rolling road works, and what it can measure? as Surry rolling road near me are willing to help out.

 

[edde]

edde, any idea what they are called?

also anybody able to tell me in detail how a rolling road works, and what it can measure? as Surry rolling road near me are willing to help out.

It measured torque at the wheel and knowing engine rpm from either the operator taking the reading off the rev counter or connecting to the TDC sensor he knows the hp, as Hp is a product of rpm and torque. They then use whatever calc to work out hp at the fly.

No idea off the top of my head do a searhc for 0-60 gauage or somehting like that.

 

[Saner]

excellent, thanks, will give that a searchy

 

[Saner]

Just bumping this back up, anyone else's help would be great and a show of hands as to if people would buy would be helpful!

 

[edde]

People ask about kiet for the 1.4 and 1.6 now and again best ask Ktec and BB tunning see how many they sell etc.

 

[Meek_racing]

What are you doing at Uni?

If you know any CAD or Engineering boys then get some help for CFD (Computer Fluid Dynamics). I can help you with basic 3D modeling and rendering but I havent touched CFD before. You can simulate the amount of air and pressure going into the induction kit and that will help with calculating the correct amound needed. I'm sure if you have a kind chat to Renault HQ and say how lovely their car is and that you want to work for them when you graduate then they might mail a few goodies to help you!

I used to do that all the time when i was doing my degree!

 

[Meek_racing]

ooops, just read the bit about what uni your at. Product Design is a class subject I did the same! Was going to do a new type of RC engine with a slipper clutch and low 120 degree engine....but they didnt have the staff to help me at the time

 

[Acejon]

I did Product Design Engineering too so if you need any help modelling Pro/E or Solidworks im available. Sounds like a good project, you need to decide specifically which part of the design you want to focus on however, its a huge subject so you need to decide if your literaly going to come up with a concept or your going to go as deep as actual design for manufacture. Theres alot of work involved and a design team for any small product can be made up of lots of people taking many months/years to come up with a final design. By all means go hell for leather and do it, but be warned before you know it it'll be January and you'll be asked to submit your initial report which by all acounts could be 10,000 words by itself based on what you've mentioned upto now and there just isnt enough time in the day to do it all along with other modules. I did a concept design which is literally that, a concept, i did however prove my findings with Calcs (with some help from a mech eng student that understood fluid dynamics...) but whilst touching on all the key parts the Degree makes up like marketing, conceptual Design, Finite Element Analysis (If/where applicable), DFM & DFA and more stuff that i've thankfully forgotten. As a concept, its a great idea and you shouldnt be put off doing it as having a passion for a subject is half the battle when tackling a dissertation, just be carefull not to go too deep

 

[MarkM]

This thread details an RR test for different air filters. Gives a good example of what data you can expect to see from an RR and how to compare the figures.

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=100940&highlight=bmc+rr+test

 

[MarkM]

On the graph the car is noticebly leaner (higher number on the AFR graph) with the aftermarket filter but it barely affects the power readout.

I have been told peak power is 12.9 AFR so the car looks a bit rich with the standard filter?

 

[Saner]

ooh, more replies excellent, and more stuff to hurt my head reading, thats very helpful Mark and thanks to the others for your help.

Have dropped K-Tec and BB an e-mail. I've got Surry Rolling Road to help me out on that side of things.

As far as what I want to do and how far, i'd love to have a prototype by the end buy the main idea is a 'cheap' induction kit that gives gains, granted these are likely to be small but i want to have garaanteed gains however small they are.

Will be using Pro/E so might ask you guys for some help (I have other projects using Pro/E aswell which i might be cheek and ask for some help with )

Thanks for this, more the merrier, with give Renault a call!

 

[Meek_racing]

Use Solidworks, its much easier and by far the best packages out there . I'm modeling my current airbox atm and then modifying it to take a direct 70mm Dia. cold air feed into it. Tis tights as a virgin tho! Not much room to pipe into it. It would be cool to have a small see thru section to see the filter inside the induction, With an ITG panel filter it would look class! But not sure what it would be like with a cone filter.

I guess it depends if your looking for a dirt cheap induction to do the job or something a bit more up market but not as silly priced as vipers etc...

 

[Neil G]

I have seen Solidworks being used and it looks pretty good.

I'd probably use Rhino for the modelling myself as it's pretty easy to use and some of the plug-ins are good.

Good luck with the project

 

[Meek_racing]

Ah, good old Rhino! I loved that NURBS stuff! Its cool for complex curves and surfaces but Solidworks is by far the easiest to use! (Getting my hands on SW 2007 soon.. but shhh…. Hehe) Plus its parametric which means you can change dimension and add equations so that the model can resize to specific requirements… If you do some research on other car size outlets then you can input the data into an excel sheet and run 100’s of variations from one model. In Rhino you have to chop and add if you make modifications. I guess its not too bad for a simple shape but if your doing pure surface modelling then you have to mesh then new surfaces and realign so that they blend into each other!


Worth looking into it mate as it looks bloody good on a report! Look at configurations under Solidworks help and you can select dimensions on the model to drive them in a spreadsheet!

The picture below shows some configurations that I use in work for component parts.


You can use this to drive different sized models for each car or engine size. This way you don’t have to draw loads of drawings to impress your module leader…

 

[Meek_racing]

Give me a buzz if you ever need some help!

 

[Acejon]

Pro/E is a parametric modelling package too and is excellent for this type of application as there are bound to be many variables that effect performance. You can also use a the skeleton modelling function to drive it if you so wish. I used this to model a 2-stroke motorbike engine in a final year project and also a splined gear system whereby you could change every variable to increase the operational life of the gear teeth and calculate failure using an exported file into an FEA package like SC03 or Ansys and applying loads.

Im sure one of us could help you out if you need a "Student" copy of either SW07 or Pro/E.... maybe even wildfire if your really lucky....

 

[Meek_racing]

Sounds good! Lets hope we are not overloading his head with loads of technical info

 

[Acejon]

I kinda thought that but carried on regardless. I wish i had someone whod been there done that to give me some tips because a dissertation can become a bottomless pit if you go too deep and you can loose sight of what you trying to achieve by going off on wild tangents when you see an idea you like. This way he'll know all the facts and have a better understanding on what he can/cant and actually wants to achieve

 

[Saner]

Too late, my had has already imploded,

The uni used Pro/E and I myself have a copy of Pro/E Wildfire 2. I would use Soildworks but I just don't have the time to learn it atm, maybe after my course has ended!

I term of what i'm trying to achive I really don't know yet. Haven't done a product specfication analysis yet (prepare for a questionaire to appear soon) and I have my other units to keep ontop of aswell.

I'm thinking of an open inducttion kit, but located infront of teh fuse box / battery area so it is semi sheilded from the engine bay by the piece of metal tahts is already there. This means I need to design the pipe replace the standdard air box and connecting to the sheet of metal, needs to be either completely felxible or flexible at some point to compensate for engine movement.

 

[Meek_racing]

Have you managed to chat to any of the lecturers yet? There could be a chance that they would rather more functionality, style and marketing of the product rather than out right engineering performance… being that your doing product design and not engineering design.
If this is just for a clio 172/182 then maybe look at different locations like you already have done. A bit of jiggery pokery with moving parts around to achieve your goal…. Maybe introduce a new way of filtration would be more rewarding in marks as it’s a new concept and not just fiddling with an existing one. I’ve looked at using ITG foam filters cut down to work in a carbon tube like BMC, crazy but if you don’t try it you will never know. Look at other methods of filtration like Dyson to see whats on the market and if it can be introduced into a car filter…. It may never work but the examiners will love the wide scale research into achieving your goal.
Like I said before, drop a few letters to companies that do filters and they may be able to help you with technical info and free samples to cut up and mess with! Its nothing to them and they may even bee keen to see what you can come up with!
Oh, and as AceJon said, use DFM as this product is being mass produced, its amazing how many designs I’ve seen that look the dogs but when you ask them how it will be made they just look all puzzled!

 

[Saner]

Right, Thought I give you all an update.

Have a rought Product Design Specification together which I hope to fine tune with a questionaire at some point. Have been speakiong to a few companies such as K-Tec and some RR people to gat an idea for design.

Will be sending an e-mail off to some Filter companies but I can only do that after I know one very important thing. What type of air the car requires! Turbulant or Laminer?

If anyone know I would be very grateful, Renault themsevles arent being helpful and no word from BenR? (where is hhe!)

 

[edde]

Right, Thought I give you all an update.

Have a rought Product Design Specification together which I hope to fine tune with a questionaire at some point. Have been speakiong to a few companies such as K-Tec and some RR people to gat an idea for design.

Will be sending an e-mail off to some Filter companies but I can only do that after I know one very important thing. What type of air the car requires! Turbulant or Laminer?

If anyone know I would be very grateful, Renault themsevles arent being helpful and no word from BenR? (where is hhe!)

Laminer I'd guess but I don't see any point trying to achiev it as there enough other bits in the way before you get to the cylinder head to make it turbulent.

 

[BenR]

Sorry bud, i've just not had time to really sit here thinking in depth about a 1.4/1.6 induction kit, i've got alot on my hands.

But what are you trying to achieve really?

Purely trying to show the gains that CAN be had with a properly designed intake system, or are you trying to keep it within the confines of the engine bay?

Why would renault be helpful?

How far are you trying to go?

A simple tube and relocated open filter affair, wont do much and cant do much. On a small capacity small bhp engine which is restricted by far more important things than the induction tube, the air filter setup is going to make VERY small differences, of which i'd be surprised if you could accurately and honestly use as evidence in a report where the accurate resolution of a RR might be in question.

Are you going to delve into the effects of different filter media, filter area? The effects of altering the induction length, bore and if you want, sectional bore changes, resonators etc etc.

Even if you put 100 hours into it and see nothing really usable, is it worthwhile?

Its late and i'm tired, so sorry if i dont see the point of what you are trying to achieve, i dont even really understand the route your trying to take.

 

[Saner]

No Problem, you've got a business to run so I don't always expect a reply!

After having done little research it is clear that an Open Filter is out of the window, so what I hope to achive is the redesign of between the standard air intake (just below the fuse box) and just after where teh filter currently sits.

I have been e-mailing back and forth with a few filter companies would have been kind enough to offer some advice but i'll be honest that i'm still in early stages with the design of the filter itself. I have intended to take a filter already on teh market and designed the box for it.

What I want to ahice is an improvement lower down the rev range (responsivness). I'm not looking for massive increases in bhp because as you say there just not there!

 

[BenR]

for something else to think about, all the worlds fastest hondas run open filters.

 

[Saner]

Thinking thats not going to work, just not enough space as a road going application!

 

[MRBILLYUK]

I think your pretty limited in what kind of box / enclosure you design due to the lack of space in the engine bay . I've made a custom enclosure for my 182 , with a K+N cone filter inside , the surface area of the filter is larger than that of the standard panel filter and it definitely hasn't lost any power . Whereas before i had the K+N apollo fitted which had a smaller surface area than the original panel filter and that really affected the performance of the car hence why i sold it .

I have a few pics , they probably wouldn't be much use though as your talking about the 1.4 and 1.6 and the location of the airbox is in a different place .

 

[Saner]

Pic's would be awesome, just because the standard filter is in a different place doesnt mean that tahts where my one will end up!

 

[MRBILLYUK]

There are the pics of my k+n cone filter in the custom airbox i made . The end near the elbow isn't enclosed in the pic but when i get round to it it will be . Its running both the orginal air feeds , one hidden underneath which i might replace with a slightly larger diameter pipe . And the acoustic valve is still in place as well .

Like i said before the apollo having a smaller surface air seemed to loose power and the 5k kick was almost gone . With the cone filter it pulls as hard as with the original panel filter , if not slightly harded .

I don't have any pics of the ends sorry , but they are finished of in the same aluminium .

 

[DERVil]

If you want advice on a cheap air induction kit, PM me, and I'll let you in on my secret (look for a thread on Dyno Results by me, and you'll see what I managed to gain. The whole set-up cost me £20 approx.