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post your york RWYB times



  mk2 172


cheers nick, your welcome anytime mate, and oh yeah, the scooby you took all the way was the sti 5 type r, the guy from scarborough, i raced him three times this in the morning, i saw you take him all the way to the finish line, was an excellent run. jon, i never ran again, didnt wanna put it through anymore stress, and when i thought about it i was well chuffed with 15.0, there werent many road cars there doin that, cliosport took the piss there yesterday as someone said earlier.

one final note, not %100 yet but i think yesterday as quenched my need to go out street racin, yep, im now a converted 1/4 miler.

craggy
 


Hi Craggs

I will give you one tip...

how to make a small amount of money out of strip time racing






.....................
...................

































Start off with A LOT..

the first few seconds is relatively easy.. after that its serious dosh, but good fun..

now m8, about that mega strong turbo unit and 350 bhp

Joe
 
  mk2 172


that would be good good out of my price braket im afraid, but theres too ways, either more power, or less weight. now were did i leave that jigsaw..............................
 


ok dokey

here is an estimate of the amount of weight you would have to remove to equal a coresponding increase in bhp for the times given above.

assume a start time of 15.0 and weight of 2500 all up.

2500 lbs @150 bhp ET=14.9
2500 lbs @160 bhp ET=14.56 or loose 158 lbs
2500 lbs @170 bhp ET=14.27 or loose 295 lbs

2500 lbs @180 bhp ET=14.0 or loose 418 lbs
2500 lbs @190 bhp ET=13.75 or loose 527 lbs
2500 lbs @200 bhp ET=13.52 or loose 625 lbs
2500 lbs @210 bhp ET=13.3 or loose 715 lbs
2500 lbs @220 bhp ET=13.1 or loose 800 lbs


I HAVE to see the willy with 800 lbs removed lol..

eg, remove the following completely ...engine, box, suspension including wheels and full interior ....should start to come close...

Joe...
 


186 kg m8 !

(divide lbs by 2.24 apx.)

I am an old git and cant think in kilos easilly

that is a LOT of weight..

get yer hacksaw out !!.....

2 mm acrylic for the glass (apart from screen
no trim at all

1 lightweight bucket seat..

no spare

no fuel

alloy suspension

race battery

should make up for most of that figure..

you need to weigh everything that is removed as you go..

then consider....

alloy bonnet, doors, tailgate..

or preferably kevlar... (You can make these at home for race use..)

ultralight wheel rims and tyres (does anyone ever weigh tyres when selected these days ? )

and, like fast n furious replace all non structural steel with light alloy.. I loved the way the floor pan came loose.. LMAO!!!.. he was using chequer plate ali.. doh!!!... heavier than the steel removed.. me thinks the props department didnt quite understand

Joe
 


Just worked out what you would need to get a 10 second car outa the willy...

(Traction is not considered lol!)

say you manage to loose 186 kg..

weight now 2082 lbs..

you would be looking at 420 bhp !!!

hee hee..

Joe
 


Tim o..

i would be vewwy interwested in the car test software m8..

I have a few we could exchange for evaluation purposes

captainslarty@ntlworld.com
 
  Corsa 1.3 CDTI


Tell you what did help on Desmondos runs, well he found it helped....

He was running 32psi and 33psi on the front wheels, so we dropped it down to 28 psi and that seemed to almost stop the front wheel lighting up.
 
  williams and trophy


yeah a little less air in the tyres always helps with traction off the line if the tyres are nice n sticky some ppl run as low as 20 psi on the hooooooooooge mickey t slicks.
also u dont wanna be revvin the nads off it on the line, i find about 1500-2500 rpm works just fine.
stories of ppl trying to launch it at 5000 rpm + makes me laugh lol they always wondering why it seems to light up the tyres lol
glad u all had a top day out ........
nick mate u need 15s on and a full tank of gas lol..........i know theres a faster time to come from your car mate, like i said i reckon u should be runnin mid 13s to low 14s with the mods youve got no probs
craggy.... yes it was definately the stiff competition that made me pul such a good time, ask trev m its amazin wot a little friendly competetion can do for you on the strip........ i believe it was his mates best time too
look forward to seeing u all again in september, either at the northern r/r day or the strip later on
cheers
jon
 
  BMW 320d Sport


hehe yeah Joe, thats some good theory you got there mate, but a seasoned 1/4 miler will tell you you cant just knock off time like that for a few extra hp.

I am using a progressive but no-one floors it immediately unless they have proper modern traction control or 4wd. you gotta let the tyres get the power down first before you can floor it. With the controller I can use the gas in 1st but only at the top. Remember if I floor it straight away, I still have enough power off gas to spin the wheels, even though theyre heavy 18s, and keep them spinning all the way to the end of 1st gear and into 2nd! So that means that whatever engine or power Im running I cant use its full potential until at least the 60ft mark.
 
  mk2 172


and remember nick isnt on 100 jets til hes just about over the line, as it accererates you can feel the stages come in, i reckon if you opened up straight away with 100jet youd have an awesome time, but not such an awesome clutch!
 
  mk2 172


oh yeah, another thing, people seem to be forgetting that with just one run of good gas you trimmed 1.1 second off your time, now add on all the variables like prgressive controller, wheelspin etc, the proof is in the puddin mate it fekin works. after all it is a 1.8 not 2.0 as well. thats my 2ps worth.

craggy
 
  BMW 320d Sport


cheers Craggy mate you said it better than I could! Anyone got some pictures at York? I might do a write-up for the meetings section of the website. About time we had a proper report of what goes on up North.
 
  BMW 320d Sport


I thought it would just be a few of us turn up for a day out, but Im pretty sure we were the biggest club there, how many of us were there?

BTW that red Astra GSi that was running good times against me when I was run out of gas, was also running nitrous all day. I know he posted some lowish 15s dont know if he hit 14s.
 


lol

Nick m8, if you have enough power to spin the wheels off gas, then you need better tyres / suspension m8 ...

I aint dissin yer motor dood.. !.. but there is no way you are running the right setup. it should be far quicker than that..

I estimate you are only getting about 40-50 bhp on gas..

sounds like the problem is in the way the progressive is set up. your supspension / tyres could do with a looksy too.

have you got access to the ap22.. ?

If not let me know, I can let you borrow it for a few weeks to set up..

Joe.
 
  mk2 172


yeah i know chris, i think the bug is brets, it defo used to be, chris has recently flogged his wrx scooby cos i think hes got a house, and got an astra gsi. might be wrong tho, he was drivin the bug tho.................didnt get much chance to speak to him yesterday
 


Im sure the bug is his as I think hes bought it recentally.

I know him through John with the red scooby (one you raced and put it in second instead of fourth).

We all went to Scarboro last night, popped by Chris house on the way back and hes got a GTi-R at the moment for sale, around the 4K mark. Think the Astra has gone now from what John was telling me...

Chris took us on this mad road between York and Scarboro which he said is used as a rally stage. He was in a mondeo and we were following in Johns scooby, was a good ride Chris certainly knows how to drive
 
  BMW 320d Sport


Joe, no worries mate, I know youre not ragging my motor...

I doubt there are any quarter milers, driving any car with any amount of power, big or small, who can sit at the line, floor it and then sidestep the clutch without any kind of wheelspin, not even 4wd on slicks, so its nothing to do with tyre problems. Just the fundamental problem of accelerating a vehicle very quickly from rest.

If you think about it, what with having to balance the clutch and throttle off the line up to at least the 60ft mark, then the fact that the controller is programmed to pulse only 50hp as soon as the throttle is nailed, and it takes at least 3 seconds to get up to full power; in my book that makes it roughly 1/8 of a mile before Im hitting the full potential of the jets. So I only have the theoretical 100hp for half of the run.
 


must disagree Nick m8.

You said you had problem with wheelspin without gas !.. there is NO WAY that you should have any significant spin with such a modest power ouput.

And you say its nothing to do with tyre problems ??.. if your suspension is set up correctly and the tyres are correct it should not be an issue.. the fundamental problem of accelerating the vehicle is not to spin tyres .. its to apply the power smoothly.. that is costing you time. the nos delivery is a matter for sorting when you sort the lack of traction out.

Joe.
 
  Clio 172 cup


Sorry guys for not making it there yesterday, sounds like i missed a top day. the most annoying thing about was i only live about 30 miles away from the strip.its not a good thing being a farmer this time of year as we are so busy and i had to work until 3pm so was well gutted. sounds like you all got pretty good times, but the weather and air temperature was probably perfect for quarter miling. should be there in september

Jim
 
  BMW 320d Sport


Joe - I could spin up the wheels of my old 1.0 Fiesta all the way through 1st if I wanted. Thats my whole point!

If you want a fast launch you need to make as much power as poss. But by keeping it in the power band and not letting it bog down, you run the risk of wheelspin. Its the balancing act between these two that is the bane of all 1/4 milers. You cannot just floor it and dump the clutch, in any street car, except something with traction control. Nor can you start from idle and do a smooth driving test start cos you will lose time. This precludes full throttle at the start, therefore it also means no gas.

Which as I explained before, means 100hp shot of gas doesnt kick in until half way down the strip...

Maybe Im going mad, but please just confirm to me what youre claiming above - that it should be impossible to spin the wheels because I dont have enough power or my tyres/suspension are no good? How can you justify that when anyone can spin their wheels in just about any car or any tyres?

Is there a single person on this forum who cant get the wheels to spin if they floor it and dump the clutch?
 


No Nick, you are reading me incorrectly

I am saying quite clearly that you DO not need to do a wheel spinning start to make a good time.. If you can spin the wheels all the way in first, then yes, your suspension and tyre combination is not optimised - in fact, I would go as far as to say grim !.

There is no point in dumping the clutch as you put it..

I say again, if you are spinning wheels as much as you claim, then the power is NOT getting to the road.. suspension and tyres again

Now, as for power, I take it, from some of the posts you have made, that the valver is not standard.. ??.. if that is so, then what is your power figure - without the gas ?.

Your car is lighter than a 172, yet a lightly modded 172 can run a faster time ??.. surely, you can see that it dont add up.. is the gas just bringing your TOTAL power to quite a bit below a std 172 ??.. cos thats what the times are showing..

It aint about driving test starts , or dump the clutch starts m8 , its about traction. and that, I am sorry to say, you dont seem to have in any great abundance.

your nos delivery is being throttled due to the loss of traction, nothing more, and that is NOT something that all cars suffer from.

Sort the lack of traction and you can start using the nos effectively.

If you think the lack of traction is normal then so be it .. but.. 130 ish at the wheels on a 172 will not induce any excessive wheel spin to get an excellent start... as soon as the power is down, the traction will hold, and hold well, and, the 172 is not the best handling of cars, it can still be optimised.

Sorry, I had to chuckle at the old fiesta lol... ...

Joe.
 


A point on this subject of getting a good start, Nick, you are were running 18s at York at what looked like a very low profile. When people upgarde wheels and tires they often reduce the tire wall greatly to try and keep the gearing the same as standard. However what happens when,you do this is reduce the tire wall flex, infact, changing the way the tire reacts to the road and wheel. When launching in my car on 15s with 50s you can actaully see the tire bend as the power goes down, it is as if the tire is flexing when gripping. With your tires being so low profile, the tire isnt given any chance of changing shape, in essence the tire just breaks adhesion. With a higher profile tire like the stock phase 1 172 wheels and tires, the tire will bend a bit whilst accelerating actually generating grip off the line. You have the reverse, couple this to the gearing change approx 5.5.% you are fighting a loosing battle in terms of acceleration and grip. Sorry for the rant mate Tim O
 


good point Tim,

Nick, what suspension and tyres are you running at the mo m8 ?

Heres how I would set mine up for strip runs.

rear suspension... adjustable shcks.. all the way up hard.. springs, normal to 1 " lower.
tyre pressures rear.. about 45 psi..

front.. standard rate springs dropped about 2-2.5 inches on adjustable platforms, adjustable shocks at soft, tyre pressure - experiment from 15 psi to 30, probably lower is better..

anti-roll bar - stiff !. with nylatron on the roll bar bushes only

strut brace front

Camber front - neutral to -.5.. tracking manufacturers spec or slight toe in - .5 - 1mm

Most important are side to side tyre pressures.

this should stop side to side torque transference causing slip, tramp causing slip, and rear squat transfer causing slip.

wheel spin costs time, try to minimise it at all costs..

Strat technique is the fastest you can get without slip ! -

then, consider nos m8

Joe.
 


Nick + Captain
U is both correct, I just dont think you can see what the other one is trying to say.
It is posible to spin almost any car all through first gear (if you want to) let alone one as powerfull as yours. If you put toooo much power on and dump the clutch you will break traction, keep the power on and you dont give the tyres a chance to regain traction. Good tyres/setup suspension, werent desiged to have this done, as it isnt the way to go fast.
It is easier to spin off of the line rather than driving SMOOTHLY and fast.
It is easier to poodle off the line (in my case bog down the turbo) rather than driving SMOOTHLY and fast.
The crunch of the matter Im affraid Nick is more practice. Its no good smoking your tyres (looks cool),but what is a good idea is to smoke them before the start line to soften the rubber and warm it, so when your ready to race they will bite better, also lowering the pressure (this needs to be worked at to find an optimum setting, keep taking more out untill the car just starts to feel unstable on a run, then add a couple of PSI), which in theory allows the initial shock of acceleration to be tacken by the sidewall and slingshoting you off the line, rather than breaking traction.
Practice Practice Practice.

Hope this is of some help

Steve B.
Street Machine 2001 SRS 4 pot champion
 
  BMW 320d Sport


hehe yeah I can see what youre all saying but this is nothing I dont know already!

I think probably you need a drive in an old 16v Joe, then youll know what Im talking about. Probably a 172 is different - having been in a couple I can vouch for that, it just *goes*, doesnt matter what the revs are when you nail it. What I call useable power.

Now a 1.8 16v Clio is not like that, as every 16v driver will tell you. There is nothing doing below about 4500 revs. If you launch at lower than that you *will* bog down (by which I mean the tyres will grip perfectly and pull the engine revs down to 2000) and wait for an eternity to get back into the power again. So maybe you can see why I launch the way I do? You simply cannot do a low rev smooth start in a 16v because you will lose time, Id say at least a second. So then the opposite extreme is to dump the clutch at high revs and spin the wheels. Again, no good, as Ive said all along; you lose time.

The middle ground is what you need to aim for in a 16v on a standing start - ie just on the verge of breaking into wheelspin but not quite. That is the point at which you are putting most power down. On a 172 you have a bigger, more flexible engine that is a lot more tolerant of different revs to get you going. In a 16v you dont have that luxury and it needs to be on the boil all the time to even get in the 15s. Believe me its all too easy to run mid-to-high 16s in a standard 16v and not be able to get any lower.

I know I need to run 15s on big balloon tyres; thats exactly the plan anyway. If I can pull 14.8 on 18s then I should be getting low 14s on smaller wheels. I have learnt from mine and others experience over the couple of years Ive been quarter miling that it is not as straightforward as more power = better times and I dont fool myself into thinking I should be running 13s when low 14s is a lot more realistic.

Anyway my point still stands - the theoretical 100hp jets and the technique I have to use to get a decent start mean that over the 1/4 mile its not truly running an extra 100bhp - hence the times arent what your program predicts. Also from my point of view Im not really interested in how much power it makes - my 1/4 mile time is whats important to me and cracking into the 14s was my aim in the first place. Now Ive done it, my target is low 14s.
 
  BMW 320d Sport


BTW Joe, I know you worry about my times mate, so just to put your mind at ease, this is what I already planned for the next 1/4 mile event:

1 - Big chunky bald 195/50/15s running 20psi on spare wheels at the front.
2 - Front shocks dialed to softest setting.
3 - All excess weight removed and only a 1/4 tank of petrol.
4 - A full bottle of gas, heated to a constant 30 degrees C.
5 - Nitrous system rewired to override full power pulsing and give constant 100hp delivery at the end of the sequence.
6 - Different fuel/nitrous injector angle.

This should see me in the low 14s comfortably. If it does, then the next stage is 13s which will involve taking off the spoiler and wing mirrors, running 13s on the front only to give even more of a slope to the front and better pace off the line.
 
  BMW 320d Sport


Steve - I will take your advice seeing as youre a 1/4 miling master, about the pressures, Ill see how stable it feels then put a couple more pounds in to get it spot on. I noticed in this months custom car that getting below the 15 second barrier means you can enter the Doorslammers street class. Finally in the big league!
 


Apart from setup, I think clutch control is also very important for a good start. Would like to invite all those racers to share their experience. No modern F1 drivers, please. Pressing a few buttons on the wheel is not what I want to know.
 


Hi Guys.
I managed to get some pics off the video that I took on Sunday. The quality isnt amazing but you should be able to see what is going on.
Nick, feel free to use any of them if you want to write a report.
see you all next time.
Stu
 


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