Power/reliability. What/how. Cost effective?

[JoshOm3]

Ok. Quick run through.

Owned my FF 182 for nye on 4 years now. Been thinking about selling and moving on etc but the clio ticks most boxes for me so I'd rather keep and enjoy it. After 4 years though I'm craving a little more power, nothing ridiculous or big but 200bhp would be nice. I've just come back from the ring and straight line speed was lacking alot. Handling seemed to be efficient for the current setup but this'll soon be changed.

My current engine ATM stands at a pretty standard bay. I've had my fair share of problems from oil pissing all over the bay to tentioners collapsing to having my dash being lite up like a Xmas tree. All of which have been sorted now thank god.

The clio although is my only car and even though I would love a 2nd car it's just not do-able in my circumstances so I've got to try make this clio fun, quick and it's got to be reliable.

Now I've thought about itb's and a turbo but I'm sure ive read that bodies gives low mpg (34mpg+ currently) and a turbo to me means problems sometimes. (correct me if I'm wrong mind you)

So I'm wondering how do I get more power without justifying reliability. It's got to be able to pop to the shops without problems and then do a track day without blowing up. Not sure wether I'm asking too much here?

im not entirely sure what else too state as I'm unsure on what's the best route to take and I'm a little unsure if reliably and more power mixes well? But surly it's possible to see 20bhp and not have have to worry about reliability.

Last things last I don't want to be spending over 3k if I can help it. I know my car isn't worth much anymore due to the year and mileage but that's fine as ill take it on the shoulder. I want to be able to enjoy it just as much as I have now with having problems as such lol.

So any advice on what to do as in building an reliable engine/ who to ask to build it, who's quick and won't f**k me about would be appreciated.

If theirs any info I've left out which could help you give me a better answer then please ask away.

Muchly appreciated guys,

​Josh.

 

[stephen chadwick]

Ok. Quick run through.

Owned my FF 182 for nye on 4 years now. Been thinking about selling and moving on etc but the clio ticks most boxes for me so I'd rather keep and enjoy it. After 4 years though I'm craving a little more power, nothing ridiculous or big but 200bhp would be nice. I've just come back from the ring and straight line speed was lacking alot. Handling seemed to be efficient for the current setup but this'll soon be changed.

My current engine ATM stands at a pretty standard bay. I've had my fair share of problems from oil pissing all over the bay to tentioners collapsing to having my dash being lite up like a Xmas tree. All of which have been sorted now thank god.

The clio although is my only car and even though I would love a 2nd car it's just not do-able in my circumstances so I've got to try make this clio fun, quick and it's got to be reliable.

Now I've thought about itb's and a turbo but I'm sure ive read that bodies gives low mpg (34mpg+ currently) and a turbo to me means problems sometimes. (correct me if I'm wrong mind you)

So I'm wondering how do I get more power without justifying reliability. It's got to be able to pop to the shops without problems and then do a track day without blowing up. Not sure wether I'm asking too much here?

im not entirely sure what else too state as I'm unsure on what's the best route to take and I'm a little unsure if reliably and more power mixes well? But surly it's possible to see 20bhp and not have have to worry about reliability.

Last things last I don't want to be spending over 3k if I can help it. I know my car isn't worth much anymore due to the year and mileage but that's fine as ill take it on the shoulder. I want to be able to enjoy it just as much as I have now with having problems as such lol.

So any advice on what to do as in building an reliable engine/ who to ask to build it, who's quick and won't f**k me about would be appreciated.

If theirs any info I've left out which could help you give me a better answer then please ask away.

Muchly appreciated guys,

​Josh.

wait till your cam belts due then chuck some cams in it, keeping it reliable dont have the revs setup silly high for the standard engine and get some rod bolts for piece of mind.

im sure Chip will be along to point you in the right direction

 

[banther]

Nope he's banned.

​Echo the advice above.

 

[Budgie]

You know, unless you're going big power (220bhp upwards) I wouldn't bother.

Especially if you want it exactly the same as a daily car.

The benefits you'll gain from 20bhp will be well outweighed by the drawbacks IMO.

 

[Cupman29]

Nope he's banned.

​Echo the advice above.

Why is he always banned? Am I missing something?

Cams, ITB's and rod bolts for a little more power and keeping reliability and boost it for more power again. If you go high boost then you'll need a forged bottom end ideally and the cost really do mount up. I know! lol

 

[JoshOm3]

You know, unless you're going big power (220bhp upwards) I wouldn't bother.

Especially if you want it exactly the same as a daily car.

The benefits you'll gain from 20bhp will be well outweighed by the drawbacks IMO.

Whats the drawbacks budgie? Any do's and donts is advice so go on.

Surly putting cams into a 135k engine is ok yes. But that won't last forever?

Maybe I'm asking about what's the best route to take for a build? What should be changed etc etc to still have a reliable engine.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Why is he always banned? Am I missing something?

Because his online persona is a bit of a jerk who posts controversial stuff all the time just to start arguments lol

--

Right for a start your fuel economy is not good lol. You should be getting 40mpg on motorway runs really on a standard clio.
My drive to cliosport saturday and back I averaged 38mpg doing 60 on the motorway - that's 200bhp on jenvey bodies.

Throttle bodies are awesome but I warn you if you aren't happy with 172bhp you probably won't be happy with 200bhp. They make a difference but not a 'wow I suddenly destroy everything' difference - especially where the ring is concerned, you need big power there.

Is there anyone local to you with ITB's that can take you out. At £2-2.5k it's an expensive conversion to do on a £1500 car to then realise it's not what you wanted.
Cars are so cheap these days if you sold the clio and put the £2k ITB budget on top you could get something a lot quicker

 

[JoshOm3]

Why is he always banned? Am I missing something?

Cams, ITB's and rod bolts for a little more power and keeping reliability and boost it for more power again. If you go high boost then you'll need a forged bottom end ideally and the cost really do mount up. I know! lol

Would Forging an engine be the most reliable? Or is that only if I'm chasing big figures? I'm a novice so bare with the silly questions. I'm learning.

 

[Jack!]

RS2 with mapping, makes for the best all-rounder, won't reach 200 without a few other things, but should be better torque and generally make the car better on track and road. Plus you won't have to sacrifice cruise control etc.

 

[mi16chris]

RS2 with mapping, makes for the best all-rounder, won't reach 200 without a few other things, but should be better torque and generally make the car better on track and road. Plus you won't have to sacrifice cruise control etc.

Fcuk cruise control lol itbs are the way to go ! All joke on the side I've never drove a rs2 car only my own with itbs so I can't really comment, as for mpg my car is not really any harder then it was so around 36mpg with body's , it's all in the mapping

 

[JoshOm3]

Because his online persona is a bit of a jerk who posts controversial stuff all the time just to start arguments lol

--

Right for a start your fuel economy is not good lol. You should be getting 40mpg on motorway runs really on a standard clio.
My drive to cliosport saturday and back I averaged 38mpg doing 60 on the motorway - that's 200bhp on jenvey bodies.

Throttle bodies are awesome but I warn you if you aren't happy with 172bhp you probably won't be happy with 200bhp. They make a difference but not a 'wow I suddenly destroy everything' difference - especially where the ring is concerned, you need big power there.

Is there anyone local to you with ITB's that can take you out. At £2-2.5k it's an expensive conversion to do on a £1500 car to then realise it's not what you wanted.
Cars are so cheap these days if you sold the clio and put the £2k ITB budget on top you could get something a lot quicker

Now where talking. My mpg is just touching 40 on the motorway and 33-36 around town etc. my bad for not explaining a little more. I think that's ok anyway lol.

I don't want to be, or have the fastest car in the world no but a little more grunt would be nice. Only person local to me is sharky and I'm pretty sure freds still got his car. But I will ask Andy when he has it back if he can take me out.

Have you built your engine around itb's Phil or just built upon it without doing much? ( make sense)

Selling up and moving on is the easy way out. I'd rather stick with the clio for now. I have no big priorities is life ATM so fun is #1 on my list.

​You have a spec list Phil?

 

[JoshOm3]

Fcuk cruise control lol itbs are the way to go ! All joke on the side I've never drove a rs2 car only my own with itbs so I can't really comment, as for mpg my car is not really any harder then it was so around 36mpg with body's , it's all in the mapping

36mpg? Is that motorway though as I'm back and fall west to South Wales regularly so don't want to be doing silly mpg. You got a build spec at all? Who mapped yours for you?

 

[mi16chris]

36mpg? Is that motorway though as I'm back and fall west to South Wales regularly so don't want to be doing silly mpg. You got a build spec at all? Who mapped yours for you?

I mapped it will be even better on motor way it's round about the same as it was , ktr itbs gen90 ecu piper exhaust with decat , 421 cams r ordered and I've arp bolts still to fit

 

[JoshOm3]

I mapped it will be even better on motor way it's round about the same as it was , ktr itbs gen90 ecu piper exhaust with decat , 421 cams r ordered and I've arp bolts still to fit

Could you explain what arp bolts are and the pros for them please. Sorry.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Have you built your engine around itb's Phil or just built upon it without doing much? ( make sense)

Selling up and moving on is the easy way out. I'd rather stick with the clio for now. I have no big priorities is life ATM so fun is #1 on my list.

​You have a spec list Phil?

Mines a completely bog standard 120k engine with ITB's bolted on - running an Omex 600.
The engine was strong (it's been well looked after by CS members throughout the years lol) so was making mid 170's before the bodies - and now makes around 200bhp.

You can fit cams for another 10bhp or so - but the cost of them (another £1k by the time you've paid labour and had belts done etc..) it didn't really seem worth it for me.

What do you use the car for? If it's purely a weekend/track toy and you're planning on stripping it out and upgrading suspension and stuff then bodies would be a good way to go - but if you just want a chunk more power with no hassle and tons of reliability I agree with others - RS2 manifold is the way to go

Half the price of bodies, 90% of the power increase - but you keep your standard wiring and ecu so it drives and feels just like standard.
With bodies and an omex you get lights lit up everywhere and you have to chop your wiring around etc...

If you get a set of Clio 197 cams (about £150) and fit those with the RS2 you should get around 200bhp anyway

 

[Cup_Phil]

Could you explain what arp bolts are and the pros for them please. Sorry.

They replace the standard bolts in the piston rods - which are a common weak point on these engines - and allow you to rev higher

RS2 manifold, 197 cams, arp rod bolts and a remap would see you hit 200bhp - cheaper for all that than bodies too

 

[mi16chris]

Could you explain what arp bolts are and the pros for them please. Sorry.

Stronger con rod bolts man stock ones r known to let go at high rpm

 

[JoshOm3]

10bhp from cams and £1k price tag seems high to me. Cams could be a option but only when I've found what I'm going for. I know my engine is strong and going well but it's not going to last forever.

I only use the car to pop to tesco, 100mile trip down the motorway and trackdays. I don't drive it hardly tbh and it's sometimes parked up for 4days without me even moving it.

Rs2 seems the way to go but there not made anymore so how'd I go about getting it?

So 197 cams, rs2 Would see me close to 200bhp? What about mapping and management. What about management or is that another page to be turned once I've choose the route I'm taking?

 

[mi16chris]

10bhp from cams and £1k price tag seems high to me. Cams could be a option but only when I've found what I'm going for. I know my engine is strong and going well but it's not going to last forever.

I only use the car to pop to tesco, 100mile trip down the motorway and trackdays. I don't drive it hardly tbh and it's sometimes parked up for 4days without me even moving it.

Rs2 seems the way to go but there not made anymore so how'd I go about getting it?

So 197 cams, rs2 Would see me close to 200bhp? What about mapping and management. What about management or is that another page to be turned once I've choose the route I'm taking?

U can use the stock ecu with the rs2 but it will need remapped and the rs2 can be bought new now days man

 

[JoshOm3]

Stronger con rod bolts man stock ones r known to let go at high rpm

Ah right. Thankyou for explaining. I have no idea On Engine building or understanding but I want to learn. Would you suggest that if I choose what I want, would I be better off sourcing all the bits and then finding someone to fit or just leave it all up to them to source and fit?

 

[JoshOm3]

U can use the stock ecu with the rs2 but it will need remapped and the rs2 can be bought new now days man

Bought new? Would you know where?

 

[mi16chris]

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=691656

 

[JoshOm3]

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=691656

Very interesting read. Thanks for the link btw. I guess the kits are still available without being in a group buy?

 

[Budgie]

Correct. Give James or Mike a call and they'll answer all your queries.

 

[JoshOm3]

Correct. Give James or Mike a call and they'll answer all your queries.

Thank you budgie. Will give them a call. If I choose to rs2,197 cams and arp rods would anything else be worth doing at the same time? I know obviously that fitting new cams the belts and phaser would then be done but I mean anything else big that would be worth doing. Want it reliable.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Nope - it'll be just as reliable as OEM with that setup - you'll be fine

Any more money I'd start looking at fitting new bushes on the front, top mounts, cooksport springs - that sort of route to get your handling nice and tight

 

[JoshOm3]

Phil i messaged you a little while back asking about suspension options etc as I was wanting kw3's but there not made with the 60mm spacing. I'm still stuck on this too btw as I want new suspension.

Ive sorted the inner arms. Tre's. injectors and got all my dash lights off. The rear is stripped with a Omp rear brace. Safety devices cage. Yozza etc.

If your saying that my engine will be fine adding that above then I'll take your word for it.

​

 

[ourboy]

I bought and fitted a new RS2 from james about a month ago, great bit of kit. You will have to get it mapped to get the most from it . I hope to travel down to get mine mapped next week if all goes well. Speak to james
best money I have spent so far if only for the sound alone.

 

[Harbinger]

Not sure if this has been done, Turbo'ing etc is mental money, but you can pick up Golf or seat turbo engines for quite cheap and they should fit in etc, with a bit of bodging it will work and you can get some pretty good power out them lumps, that way you keep the car but have much better power, someone on here has put a GT-TDI lump in his DCI so they will fit in and run, shouldn't cost anywhere near the 4k mark needed for a decent turbo job.

 

[r0ss172]

Nope he's banned.

​Echo the advice above.

Again?? what for?

 

[Cup_Phil]

Phil i messaged you a little while back asking about suspension options etc as I was wanting kw3's but there not made with the 60mm spacing. I'm still stuck on this too btw as I want new suspension.

Yeah you're a bit screwed if you're on the 182 cup hole spacing.
I would honestly get hold of a set of 172 cup hubs cheap and try fitting one on - I'm 99% sure they'll fit straight on and then you can use any off the shelf coilovers.

Ive sorted the inner arms. Tre's. injectors and got all my dash lights off. The rear is stripped with a Omp rear brace. Safety devices cage. Yozza etc.

If your saying that my engine will be fine adding that above then I'll take your word for it.

You're engine will be fine with either - it's just down to budget and personal preference

RS2 - cheaper, 190-200bhp (depending on if you fit cams too), smooth torque curve makes them sooo nice to drive, nice noise, simple bolt on-map-drive solution
ITB's - more expensive, 200bhp, more top end grunt than RS2 and a bit quicker in a straight line, epic noise, mostly chopping looms about and not as easy an installation.

You can get the K-Tec Gen90 ecu which actually plugs straight into your standard loom to save the hacking about with ITB's but that's more money again.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Not sure if this has been done, Turbo'ing etc is mental money, but you can pick up Golf or seat turbo engines for quite cheap and they should fit in etc, with a bit of bodging it will work and you can get some pretty good power out them lumps, that way you keep the car but have much better power, someone on here has put a GT-TDI lump in his DCI so they will fit in and run, shouldn't cost anywhere near the 4k mark needed for a decent turbo job.

It can be done yes - but your reasoning for it is utterly wrong
Turbo'ing a 172 costs £3k - that's a DIY kit with all the stuff you need to map it to 230bhp. You can do it a lot cheaper if you don't mind shopping around and using some 2nd hand bits too.

By the time you've bought a 1.8t 20v lump - fabricated mounts - worked out a solution for a gearbox and driveshafts. It'll cost a lot more than £3k

 

[Harbinger]

It can be done yes - but your reasoning for it is utterly wrong
Turbo'ing a 172 costs £3k - that's a drive in - drive out solution with 230bhp.
By the time you've bought a 1.8t 20v lump - fabricated mounts - worked out a solution for a gearbox and driveshafts. It'll cost a lot more than £3k

That's without forged Pistons and rods though right?

 

[r0ss172]

I echo the above too... if its only 20bhp (you wont really notice much difference with this setup in terms of overall pace, but may drive a lot better) you want then the RS2 and 197 cams package seems to be great!

Im not sure if it was DAN@SJM or someone else that managed to crack 200bhp with this set up?

But if you want something thats noticeably quicker then i think another car could be something to look at... although having said that, i understand you fully when you say the clio does tick A LOT of boxes when it comes to over all spec, i mean its hard to find something as quick and nimble as the clio that also boasts half leather, climate, cruise, xenons, return 35-40mpg and cost only £2-4k. I went from ph1 172 to an Evo 5, to a MCS (R53), to a FF182, to my 172 turbo. Only downside to my car is its a little hot when the weathers like it currently is @ 29degrees!!

Perhaps get yourself to a track day and get a passenger lap in an RS2'd car, or get someone to take you out in their car on the road thats got an RS2?

 

[Dan@SJM]

Both myself and Mike Woodford have cracked 200bhp on the 197/rs2 setup.

Tbh it's a setup I'd have again in a heartbeat.

 

[r0ss172]

Both myself and Mike Woodford have cracked 200bhp on the 197/rs2 setup.

Tbh it's a setup I'd have again in a heartbeat.

Was sure i was right

 

[Westyfield2]

For a normal road car I'd not go for ITBs as I'd want to be sticking with stock ECU (cruise control etc) and also want to keep the aircon (so no supercharger).

• JMS RS2
• Retimed standard Cams or 197 Cams (or even Catcams 438) depeding on how much money you want to chuck at it
• Mapping by people who know what they're doing

​


And then just to add a bit more reliability:

• ARP rod bolts
• Decent valves

​And if you want to get the power down and can stomach the cost, get a Quaife LSD.

 

[Cup_Phil]

He's already stated it's not a road car and everything just added is same as what I've said lol

He doesn't want to sell the clio for evo etc... first thing I suggested

Harbinger - no it's not with forged internals as you don't need them at 230bhp

 

[bright]

He's already stated it's not a road car and everything just added is same as what I've said lol

He doesn't want to sell the clio for evo etc... first thing I suggested

Harbinger - no it's not with forged internals as you don't need them at 230bhp

But he said it was his only car, so I presume its for both road and track?

 

[Cup_Phil]

I only use the car to pop to tesco, 100mile trip down the motorway and trackdays. I don't drive it hardly tbh and it's sometimes parked up for 4days without me even moving it.

That's not what most of us would call a daily driver