Power/reliability. What/how. Cost effective?

[JoshOm3]

That's not what most of us would call a daily driver

Lol. Work horse maybe then. Also I'm thinking of buying some kw's and modifying the hole spacing. Got to have a search though and see. Don't understand why they don't do 60mm. Annoying.


Turbo'ing isn't something I want. Seems to pricey and I like the N/A side. An Evo is something I don't need.

Westyfeild, what did you mean by retrim the cams? Please explain. Would I need decent valves if fitting a RS2?

Harbingee, I don't like the 1.8 20v lumps. Great engines though.

 

[Dan@SJM]

By the time you've bought a 1.8t 20v lump - fabricated mounts - worked out a solution for a gearbox and driveshafts. It'll cost a lot more than £3k

Eh? You'd use the box from the car you got th engine from. It all set you back about 2k including the shafts/rods/turbo etc.

 

[JaredHasNoBrain]

I'll echo everyone else, RS2 with 197 cams. Sorted!

And when Its done I want a passenger ride haha there's not many big powered clio's around here apart from Sharkey lol

 

[JoshOm3]

I'll echo everyone else, RS2 with 197 cams. Sorted!

And when Its done I want a passenger ride haha there's not many big powered clio's around here apart from Sharkey lol

​Lol. Not a promise but if its done then no problem. Still pondering on mapping though.

 

[SharkyUK]

Only person local to me is sharky and I'm pretty sure freds still got his car. But I will ask Andy when he has it back if he can take me out.

Yeah, no problem mate - anytime. The only thing I'll say is that the setup I have will be a fair chunk more than you're looking to spend but you are certainly more than welcome to take a ride/drive when it's back. By the time you've factored everything in (everything from ECU to forged parts, etc) the cost can escalate quite quickly, especially if after decent figures and keeping it NA. It's true they say that it's a shed load of money for relatively little gain (compared to the boost boys!) But, like yourself, I'm an NA fan so it wasn't a concern personally.

I'd echo some of the comments previous and suggest looking at the RS2 / 197 cams option, along with maybe suspension refresh or something like that. You pedal your Clio quite nicely and would think such a setup would suit you down to the ground.

Either way mate, I'll give you a shout when the T is back and you can check it out and see what you think.

 

[JaredHasNoBrain]

​Lol. Not a promise but if its done then no problem. Still pondering on mapping though.

haha good lad. If it were my car then I would map it. It is the best way to smooth the power/torque curve and make your drive a lot better and will be able to put power down from lower revs.

If I had the money to mod my car I would map it every time I get something new done to the car (power wise obviously lol)

 

[JoshOm3]

Yeah, no problem mate - anytime. The only thing I'll say is that the setup I have will be a fair chunk more than you're looking to spend but you are certainly more than welcome to take a ride/drive when it's back. By the time you've factored everything in (everything from ECU to forged parts, etc) the cost can escalate quite quickly, especially if after decent figures and keeping it NA. It's true they say that it's a shed load of money for relatively little gain (compared to the boost boys!) But, like yourself, I'm an NA fan so it wasn't a concern personally.

I'd echo some of the comments previous and suggest looking at the RS2 / 197 cams option, along with maybe suspension refresh or something like that. You pedal your Clio quite nicely and would think such a setup would suit you down to the ground.

Either way mate, I'll give you a shout when the T is back and you can check it out and see what you think.

Hi Andy. Not sure wether that comment was ment for me or Jared. But thanks for the advice. Clios in need of a little more power. Been 4 years now so I fancy having some engine fun with it. Lol. Oh and sorry for not messaging you back via Facebook. Was the night I was going on holiday so I was rushing around packing and prepping the car. I will message you back though lol.

Jared, I defo want the car mapped but wondering if mike who'll hopefully fit it will be able to map it or will I have too take it along to someone else.

Should have really phoned today but been too busy.

 

[SharkyUK]

Sorry Josh, my reply was meant for you mate! No worries about not getting back to me; glad you enjoyed your time at the 'Ring. Drop me a message when you've got time, I'm usually not far away!

 

[Jack!]

Just a note, if you want fast road type setup, then don't go with 197 cams, they give you a better peak figure, but you need to be really high up the rev range to exploit them, and you'd only ever be doing so on track. Standard cams and RS2 give a lower peak figure but better torque throughout the rev range, and hence gives you more usable power in all circumstances.

Also, I beleive cams will drop MPG a fair bit as well, not loads, but expect to lose between 5-10 MPG as some have mentioned around here.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Mike Woodford is really the only person you want to map it.

Also, myself and him are the only people who know how to time up the 197 cams.

I loved the setup, tbh it really didn't feel any slower than my ITB'd one.

 

[JoshOm3]

Mike Woodford is really the only person you want to map it.

Also, myself and him are the only people who know how to time up the 197 cams.

I loved the setup, tbh it really didn't feel any slower than my ITB'd one.

So if I was to take the rs2 route let mike map it.

Anymore info on choice of cams? Some people saying 197 cams, others saying 438's. I don't want a huge drop in mpg as this is and will be my only car. Main priority is reliability.

 

[Dan@SJM]

438's would be too wild IMO. 197's take a little from down low and give you more top end.

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

Standard cams on my new setting are Epic.

 

[Westyfield2]

Retimed standard Cams

​

Standard cams on my new setting are Epic.

This. Currently saving my pennies for an RS2 and some magical timing and mapping.

 

[JoshOm3]

438's would be too wild IMO. 197's take a little from down low and give you more top end.

As in what way do tou mean wild Dan? Explain.

 

[SharkyUK]

Josh, a wilder cam will open the valves quicker and for longer (duration), improving the efficiency of the engine. The longer the duration, the higher up the rev band power is made and you'll tend to lose some lower-end grunt / torque (due to the increase overlap and longer duration). It also reduces economy and increases emissions. The wilder the cam, the more extreme these effects.

^ This is my untrained understanding of it.

 

[JoshOm3]

Josh, a wilder cam will open the valves quicker and for longer (duration), improving the efficiency of the engine. The longer the duration, the higher up the rev band power is made and you'll tend to lose some lower-end grunt / torque (due to the increase overlap and longer duration). It also reduces economy and increases emissions. The wilder the cam, the more extreme these effects.

^ This is my untrained understanding of it.

Ahhh.. Does make sense now it's explained. Thankyou. Well I don't want no wild cams or worser mpg so that's out the window. Any idea on why someone's mentioned uprating the valves when rs2-ing?

 

[SharkyUK]

Valves are a bit of a weak point on these engines mate - due, I believe, to their two-part construction. Hence they can, and do, fail. On standard and modified engines. You could always look to something like the SuperTec valves (which you can buy for circa £300 for the set at the moment) but whether or not it's an expense you want to incur is another matter. Definitely worth passing that one by one of the specialists on here mate.

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

The RS2 doesn't make the valves anymore likely to fail.

People update the valves as they are a know weak point.

 

[Shedspeed]

I've driven the same car on 197/rs2 setup and with 438/itb's around Bedford. While the latter setup came alive at the top end in a rather special way, it was such hard work keeping it in the sweet spot and it felt gutless as soon as you dropped out of it. The 197/rs2 setup was much more forgiving and flexible to drive, and the overall pace of the car was close on the same to be honest.
From what I hear from Mike, he's been getting some even better results with a molested 172/rs2 setup aswell!

 

[JoshOm3]

I've driven the same car on 197/rs2 setup and with 438/itb's around Bedford. While the latter setup came alive at the top end in a rather special way, it was such hard work keeping it in the sweet spot and it felt gutless as soon as you dropped out of it. The 197/rs2 setup was much more forgiving and flexible to drive, and the overall pace of the car was close on the same to be honest.
From what I hear from Mike, he's been getting some even better results with a molested 172/rs2 setup aswell!

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for that. Clears it up more and more with the route I'll be taking.

Sharky, are valves around £300 normally or are there other options? Uprating the valves a defo thing to do once rs2-ing or would it just be personal preference thing to do. I didn't budget this you see.

 

[Cup_Phil]

That's pretty much what Chip and others will tell you about the RS2 as well

It has such a flat torque curve if you put your foot down in any gear it just goes - whereas with ITB's obviously you get more power and torque top end so you have to thrash them a bit more.

There's no need to uprate valves at all on either and ITB car or an RS2 car.

 

[Chip-mk1]

That's pretty much what Chip and others will tell you about the RS2 as well

It has such a flat torque curve if you put your foot down in any gear it just goes - whereas with ITB's obviously you get more power and torque top end so you have to thrash them a bit more.

Actually if talking retimed 197 cams and RS2, peak power tends to be made at about 7800rpm, so a fair bit higher than ITBs and standard cams and higher even than most cammed ITB cars.

There's no need to uprate valves at all on either and ITB car or an RS2 car.

From a performance point of view no, but if you are revving over 7Krpm a lot, then reliability wise its not a bad idea, thing is though you end up spending a lot of money relative to the value of the engine you are protecting.
Even if you do the work yourself and do it at a time you are replacing the belts anyway its still going to take you the wrong side of 500 quid extra to get the valves into it, just to protect an engine worth half that.
They do fail even on standard engines though sometimes, so there is a small risk there.


TBH money wise with these cars now being worth so little, you have to really think hard about how long you are keeping it etc as to if cams or an rs2 etc are worth it.
The one good thing about the RS2 though is that its much safer money even though its a little dearer in the first place.

Cams fitted and mapped are going to come to about 1200-1500 quid depending on where you go

RS2 fitted and mapped with standard cams retimed is going to be i'd guess about 500 more than that.


If you come to sell up though, the RS2 can be DIY replaced with the standard inlet and sold on for best part of a grand, where as the cams are likely to require most people to use a specialist to remove them, which will cost about the same as their secondhand value, so you essentially wont get a penny back.

also if an engine fails (spins the centre main for example which these engines quite like to do) then the cams are likely to be trashed, where as the Rs2 will just happily go on the next engine or still sell for good money.


So I think as an "investment" (I put the term in quotes as you are still going to lose either way) that the RS2 is a much safer one.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for that. Clears it up more and more with the route I'll be taking.

Sharky, are valves around £300 normally or are there other options? Uprating the valves a defo thing to do once rs2-ing or would it just be personal preference thing to do. I didn't budget this you see.

If you are on standard cams retimed the RS2 makes peak power a lot lower than on the 197 cammed engines like my girlfriends one which are the ones you tend to see with the uprated valves (her rev limiter is at 7850rpm, on standard cams there is no point setting it past 7500 and even then you wont feel the need to use all of it as much as it will peak well before it, where as hers makes peak power at the limiter)

 

[Cup_Phil]

He's back!!! haha
For how long this time..


That was my point with valves - £500 aint worth it to protect an engine you can replace for £300 IMHO

And yeah valves are a weak point, and so are rod bolts blah blah - but my ITB'd engine has been hooning around tracks for 2 years at 130k miles on standard rod bolts and standard valves and revving to 7800rpm.

 

[Chip-mk1]

He's back!!! haha
For how long this time..


That was my point with valves - £500 aint worth it to protect an engine you can replace for £300 IMHO

Yeah, and 500 quid is just the parts price for the valves gasket/head fasteners (and only then if you use the cheapy aftermarket fasteners), no labour!
To replace the valves and rings and rod bolts in my mrs car, including changing fluids and belts etc, it was over a grand in parts alone, if we had to pay labour rather than me doing it (and mike timing the cams to his specs as a favour) it would have been ridiculous, like getting on for 2K, which is more than the car is worth and 10 times what the engine (140K at the time, over 150K now) was worth, lol.

And yeah valves are a weak point, and so are rod bolts blah blah - but my ITB'd engine has been hooning around tracks for 2 years at 130k miles on standard rod bolts and standard valves and revving to 7800rpm.

I thought you were on standard cams? If so I am assuming you dont go near the limiter often as its not going to be making peak power way before?
It is a case of the longer you spend there the more chance of failure.

Its a lottery though, thats the harsh reality, these parts (pistons as well) arent well made, the quality control standards are poor, and as such they vary, so you might get lucky or you might not.
Some cars have 1 piston that has air bubbles near the ring lands that lead to a likelyhood of failure, some have 2, some have none and I dare say somewhere there is one where all 4 are on borrowed time.
There is literally NO way of knowing unless you actually strip the engine and get the xray machine out for the components!

 

[scott.p]

Another vote for the RS2 manifold, Ive had mine fitted a few weeks now and it has totally transformed the way the car drives. The power is so much more usable with the lovely torque curve. Keeps all your toys such as cruise control and doesn't light your dash up like a Christmas tree.
It just feels like the car that Renault should have built in the first place.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Another vote for the RS2 manifold, Ive had mine fitted a few weeks now and it has totally transformed the way the car drives. The power is so much more usable with the lovely torque curve. Keeps all your toys such as cruise control and doesn't light your dash up like a Christmas tree.
It just feels like the car that Renault should have built in the first place.

Exactly the phrase I tend to use!
I guess emissions at idle for type approval or something drove the original manifold design, but it completely ruins the car!

 

[Cup_Phil]

I thought you were on standard cams? If so I am assuming you dont go near the limiter often as its not going to be making peak power way before?
It is a case of the longer you spend there the more chance of failure.

Its a lottery though, thats the harsh reality, these parts (pistons as well) arent well made, the quality control standards are poor, and as such they vary, so you might get lucky or you might not.
Some cars have 1 piston that has air bubbles near the ring lands that lead to a likelyhood of failure, some have 2, some have none and I dare say somewhere there is one where all 4 are on borrowed time.
There is literally NO way of knowing unless you actually strip the engine and get the xray machine out for the components!

I am on standard cams.. makes peak power at about 7600rpm

 

[Chip-mk1]

I am on standard cams.. makes peak power at about 7600rpm

Thats higher than I would have expected, although I was forgetting what short trumpets you were on, will be interesting to see if it manages to move down a bit with the longer ones.

Got a graph for yours out of interest?

 

[JackD]

Sorry to hijack but I was wondering if anyone could say roughly how much the fabrication of parts would cost for a 1.8T conversion?

I have my S3 which I'm thinking of selling and now the thoughts been planted about giving my clio it's engine as I've had itb's before and as much as I loved them, I can only echo what people have said about it still not being a fast car with them.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Sorry to hijack but I was wondering if anyone could say roughly how much the fabrication of parts would cost for a 1.8T conversion?

I have my S3 which I'm thinking of selling and now the thoughts been planted about giving my clio it's engine as I've had itb's before and as much as I loved them, I can only echo what people have said about it still not being a fast car with them.

PM andyrg, but the problem is when you say how much to fabricate to do you mean for someone else to do the conversion for you or how much in materials to do it yourself?
If its you doing the work I cant see any reason you would need to spend more than a few hundred quid in terms of phsyically mounting it etc (although personally I would buy shafts not cut and shut them so that would put the price up)

 

[Cup_Phil]

Thats higher than I would have expected, although I was forgetting what short trumpets you were on, will be interesting to see if it manages to move down a bit with the longer ones.

Got a graph for yours out of interest?

It's fairly standard from what I've seen of other ITB'd engines running 90mm trumpets

I'm looking forward to getting it back on the rollers with the 120's see what difference it's made

 

[JackD]

I would have to pay for all the fabrication unfortunately as I'm not capable myself. All work (not fabrication) carried out would be through friends so cheaper but not free labour. Thought it might be a cheaper, reliable way of getting a turbo clio!

Thanks, I knew someone had done the conversion but couldn't remember the name, will PM him now.

 

[Chip-mk1]

A little lower peak power rpm on that particular graph than you mentioned, but thats a really nice curve that, certainly doesnt tail off as some I have seen, and looks like it should pull well even from 3K.

Hard to justify cams when it already drives that nicely, although obviously you could get around 10% more peak power, but then you might get to find out how good your pistons are or not, lol.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I would have to pay for all the fabrication unfortunately as I'm not capable myself. All work (not fabrication) carried out would be through friends so cheaper but not free labour. Thought it might be a cheaper, reliable way of getting a turbo clio!

Thanks, I knew someone had done the conversion but couldn't remember the name, will PM him now.

In the long run its cheaper doing the engine swap im sure, boxes are better, diffs are cheaper, engine parts are cheaper and more readily available.

How much its going to cost though by the sounds of it will be down to how much your friends charge you for labour more than the parts involved.

 

[Cup_Phil]

A little lower peak power rpm on that particular graph than you mentioned, but thats a really nice curve that, certainly doesnt tail off as some I have seen, and looks like it should pull well even from 3K.

Hard to justify cams when it already drives that nicely, although obviously you could get around 10% more peak power, but then you might get to find out how good your pistons are or not, lol.

It pulls like a steam train - I'm really not bothered about cams at all

 

[JoshOm3]

It pulls like a steam train - I'm really not bothered about cams at all

Mines on very similar mileage Phil and I very much doubt I do as many trackdays as you but when I do it gets a beating.

If cams aren't that important for you whilst your on itb's, how would the rs2 work without updated cams?

And chip thanks for your advice. Hasn't gone unnoticed.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If cams aren't that important for you whilst your on itb's, how would the rs2 work without updated cams?

Arguably in terms of a road car and just the very occasional trackday, the best results so far from the RS2 have been without uprated cams anyway, just with the timing changed on the standard cams. Ok you only get a low 190 instead of a 200, but you get it a lot sooner in the rev range and with much more midrange torque.


We have 197 cams in our RS2 car currently, but when we do our next RS2 car which will see a bit less track action than the last one we are going to stick with standard cams but retimed instead I think, bit less peak power but better midrange.



You dont need valves or ARP bolts really then either as you can stick to a 7500rpm limiter and wont hit it every gearchange anyway (although personally I will at least do the bolts)

And chip thanks for your advice. Hasn't gone unnoticed.

Pleasure mate

 

[Chip-mk1]

It pulls like a steam train - I'm really not bothered about cams at all

When you put your foot down going after Mick at the POL meet it seemed to go pretty well