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Power Steering

1

172_Cup_Lew

Car  Cup and R6
Read somewhere that someone with a cup has actually removed their power steering setup and lost 10kg and gained 7bhp? fact or b****cks? your thoughts?
 
No thats the Aircon unit, as the aircon usess alot of the engine power, hence why iv ditched it on my conversion as its not nessecary to have
 
Jay_Low said:
No thats the Aircon unit, as the aircon usess alot of the engine power, hence why iv ditched it on my conversion as its not nessecary to have
Click to expand...

he definately said power steering, thats why i posted this thread, i didnt think power steering has any affect the engines power like AC does?
 
well the power steering is in the same place as the aircon unit, so it might use some but not as much as 7bhp i wouldnt have though,

i kno 7bhp is the figure people give for the loss of AC,

did he have to change the steering rack atall ?
 
Jay_Low said:
well the power steering is in the same place as the aircon unit, so it might use some but not as much as 7bhp i wouldnt have though,

i kno 7bhp is the figure people give for the loss of AC,

did he have to change the steering rack atall ?
Click to expand...

he never said, it was a very old post on a youtube vid so couldnt really ask him, worth a bit of research on though :approve:
 
The PAS will only really reduce engine power when you are turning the wheel and the pump is working hard. And as this will be on a corner when you dont need the extra power as you will be off throttle, removal is therefore pointless from a power point of view. At most on a 172 you would gain a few hp by removing it.

If you go to you tube do a search for 'power steering failure rally'. Watch all the videos of WRC rally cars losing time on the stages because their PAS has failed. There is a video of Gronholm losing minutes on a stage because he has no PAS, at the end he says 'im very tired and lost a lot of time because the PAS failed'.

Dont believe the hype, PAS is used in motor sport as it makes the cars quicker. Removing it is pointless and will make your car slower in all places except a perfectly smooth race track. Trying to catch the back end of a car on a twisty road is infinately more difficult with a manual steering rack.

All the works clio rally cars ran / run PAS for a good reason. If you go for a good B road blast you need it.
 
Mine has the PAS removed and once over 10mph it's perfectly fine. Good PAS shouldn't be working when at speed and things like correcting oversteer really aren't an issue.

When you have PAS and it breaks you'll have more resistance because you'll be having to force through the assistance, a manual rack doesn't have any.

Also you can have improved feel through the wheel (although this can also be a slight burden).
 
10kg sounds realistic, I've just removed the power steering on my mk1 & replaced it with what they used on the mk1 cup racers, not weighed the bits but I reckon I've saved about 15-20kg
 
Done it at the same time as I was swapping the engine so not very long in the grand scheme of things

I was very surprised at how much stuff I removed from the engine for it to work, brackets, pump, pipework & the manual rack must weigh about half what the PAS rack weighed
 
Keeping in mind ( sorry to b boring ) but have u ever tried parking or manouvering a car with no PAS? If you use it as a daily drive it'd get tiresome very quickly!
 
ben_r1 said:
Keeping in mind ( sorry to b boring ) but have u ever tried parking or manouvering a car with no PAS? If you use it as a daily drive it'd get tiresome very quickly!
Click to expand...


Been there, done that & since parking is such a tiny part of driving I can live with the extra difficulty since the all round drive is so much better without the PAS
 
Mesa said:
Mine has the PAS removed and once over 10mph it's perfectly fine. Good PAS shouldn't be working when at speed and things like correcting oversteer really aren't an issue.

When you have PAS and it breaks you'll have more resistance because you'll be having to force through the assistance, a manual rack doesn't have any.

Also you can have improved feel through the wheel (although this can also be a slight burden).
Click to expand...

Try this.

Drive in second gear and grab the wheel with your left hand on the right side of the wheel at 3 o clock. Now yank the wheel to the 9 oclock position anticlockwise as fast as you can. This is a pretty normal steering movement to get the back out on a hair pin in a rally car.

Try with PAS and then without.

You will soon realise why rally cars run PAS. You wouldnt do this on a track. And you wouldnt do it under normal driving conditions. But its nice to have the option to do it if you want to. With PAS removed, you cant.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woWZXdYYdKU

WRC 2004, Rally Sweden, stage 3 Marcus Grönholm experiences power steering failure and drops from 1st place (-3.3 sec) to 7th (+53.8 sec).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sco58M7Fs4

WRC 2004, Rally Mexico, stage 5 Marcus Grönholm experiences power steering failure again during the first stage of day 2 and drops from 2nd place (+8.4 sec) to 6th (+1:15.6).


You lose so much time its worth getting a 10 minute penalty to get it fixed.
But they were far from the only top team experiencing technical challenges as Rally Colorado got underway. Subaru Rally Team USA’s Ken Block and Alessandro Gelsomino were also battling their vehicle with a power steering failure. The pair took a 10 minute penalty on stage 1 for an illegal service to have their crew attempt repairs, and then an additional 1.50 minutes of road points after stage 2. With 11.5 minutes in penalties to recover on stage, the odds were stacked against Block and Gelsomino from the beginning.

And do a google search to see how many rally cars have dropped out of events with PAS failure.


If manual steering is so good, why do rally cars go so slow with it?
 
You can't compare a broken PAS system to one that has none. Imagine if a motor or hydraulic valve breaks and you have to force the motor by hand. With no PAS you don't have to force a broken part - there is none. Turn your engine off at 40 and see how hard and heavy the steering is.

Getting rid of PAS shouldn't be to do purely with weight or extra engine power (you won't notice) it's to do with the fact the assisted steering (IMO) is utter s**te.


You don't lose the backend of a FWD car - you shouldn't be losing it full stop. I fully agree moving the wheel lock to lock is slower and harder but my point is you will (should) never need to, where having better feel though the wheel in the firsdt place is more important and used more often.
 
bradharding24 said:
And where does the electricity come from to power the electric pump?
Click to expand...

That's a bit different, he's referring to the lack of a pulley being driven by the belt off the crank hence less drag on the engine. Basically it's the electrics and the power steering being driven by 1 pulley instead of 2 (with an electric PAS pump)
 
16v_paddy said:
That's a bit different, he's referring to the lack of a pulley being driven by the belt off the crank hence less drag on the engine. Basically it's the electrics and the power steering being driven by 1 pulley instead of 2 (with an electric PAS pump)
Click to expand...

A 2 horse power motor is a 2 horse power motor. The law of conservation of energy says that if it takes 2 horse power to drive a motor, it doesnt matter where that energy comes from, but it must come from somewhere.

Fitting an electric power steering pump will still take the 2 hp, but it will come off the alternator in the form of electricity, instead of off the PAS pump in the form of hydraulic pressure.

You cant create energy from nothing.

If you are using the cars energy to turn the steering instead of your own, which is what PAS does, then that energy will somehow have to come from the combustion of the petrol in the engine. The energy required to drive the road wheels left or right will be similar whether you use an electric hydraulic pump, and electric motor or a hydraulic belt driven pump.

You cant get away from this fact.

The only way to prevent this would be to fit an electric PAS and run it from a separate battery.
 
Mesa said:
You can't compare a broken PAS system to one that has none. Imagine if a motor or hydraulic valve breaks and you have to force the motor by hand. With no PAS you don't have to force a broken part - there is none. Turn your engine off at 40 and see how hard and heavy the steering is.

Getting rid of PAS shouldn't be to do purely with weight or extra engine power (you won't notice) it's to do with the fact the assisted steering (IMO) is utter s**te.
Click to expand...

You are assuming that WRC use hydraulic PAS. They dont. Most will use electric that allows you to alter the amount of assist. Look in demon tweeks, they are for sale in there for a few thousand of your UK slave tokens.

Mesa said:
You don't lose the backend of a FWD car - you shouldn't be losing it full stop.
Click to expand...

100 UK slave tokens says you are wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5v-OhjiBDg&feature=related

FWD rally cars have hydraulic handbrakes for a reason. Its faster to get round a twisty road sideways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9ghdQOgD3s
 
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I'm not assuming anything, if a motor brakes on the PAS then you still have to manually push through the extra resistance. This is getting to arguing over semantics which I don't want, it's not helpful to the OP.

For me, PAS on the clio is really, really bad and removing it makes 90%+ of driving better.

There's no point arguing over WRC that's nothing to do with it, we don't drive road cars like rally drivers do WRC cars.

It's my opinion that you should only remove it due to the difference in feel, not for any massive weight or power savings/improvement.
 
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Mesa said:
I'm not assuming anything, if a motor brakes on the PAS then you still have to manually push through the extra resistance. This is getting to arguing over semantics which I don't want, it's not helpful to the OP.

For me, PAS on the clio is really, really bad and removing it makes 90%+ of driving better.

There's no point arguing over WRC that's nothing to do with it, we don't drive road cars like rally drivers do WRC cars.

It's my opinion that you should only remove it due to the difference in feel, not for any massive weight or power savings/improvement.
Click to expand...

Then there is the fact that PAS racks on the clio RS and williams / 16v are quick racks, but the manual ones are not.

So you end up taking off a 'sporty' quick rack and replacing it with a bog standard 4+ turns lock to lock slow rack.

The quick racks give a better drive because you dont have to continually feed the wheel round (or in the case of a rally car less so), but they are too heavy to use without power assistance.

The manual racks are geared to allow them to work with no power assistance, but to do this the gear needs leverage which results in 4 + turn lock to lock.

So all your extra 'feel' is wasted because your hands are on the wheel less.

And then when you do lose the car, you have to put in extra steering input to correct it, because the gearing on the rack is so long.

Renault put quick racks on the sporty clios, and left the manual racks on the base models for a reason.

I can understand manual steering in a dedicated circuit racer. But on a road or rally car it is complete madness, especially in a fwd car with a big 2 litre engine at the front.
 
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i get your point brad, but why did the cupracers do it that way?

the lesser models you refer to have electirc PAS also (true electric, not electro hydr)

also if you think about it, just thinking aloud, an alternator is a free spinning device, ie it takes bugger all effort to spin - correct? the faster it spins the more juice comes out of it? whereas a hydro PAS pump causes a drag, ie the engine has to idle up to stop itself conking out?

get where i'm coming from here?
 
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Brad I see you point but I wouldn't go as far as saying not having PAS is madness.

I use the rack from the 1.2 Dynamique and keep the column from the 182, it's pretty quick, accurate and direct.

If the OP lives nearby he's more than welcome to come drive mine to see what it's like before committing to doing it themselves.
 
Fred said:
i get your point brad, but why did the cupracers do it that way?

the lesser models you refer to have electirc PAS also (true electric, not electro hydr)

also if you think about it, just thinking aloud, an alternator is a free spinning device, ie it takes bugger all effort to spin - correct? the faster it spins the more juice comes out of it? whereas a hydro PAS pump causes a drag, ie the engine has to idle up to stop itself conking out?

get where i'm coming from here?
Click to expand...

Do you think that the alternator is a free spinning device because you have held one in your hands and the pulley spins freely when you try? What happens when the exciter voltage charges the magnetic field within the alternator when it is fitted to the car? Is it still a free spinning device?

The main problem is that there are two drag componenets on the alternator. Normal frictional drag and electrical drag. The more electrical devices you have in your car the more electrical drag there is on the alternator. For a normal passenger car i beleive the drag is about 2 hp.

The obvious solution is to fit a KERS system to the front brakes to power the cars electrics, and then you have your 'free' energy.
 
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Mesa said:
Brad I see you point but I wouldn't go as far as saying not having PAS is madness.

I use the rack from the 1.2 Dynamique and keep the column from the 182, it's pretty quick, accurate and direct.

If the OP lives nearby he's more than welcome to come drive mine to see what it's like before committing to doing it themselves.
Click to expand...

Some people like it some dont. Im just trying to give the opening poster a balanced view, as many think removing the PAS is free horse power and makes the car quicker.

Each to their own. Ive tried both and found manual steering fine for normal driving, fine for spirited driving, but i couldnt push the car to the limit and have confidence i could keep control of it with a manual rack.

One thing i know is that i can drive more quickly with the PAS than i can without.
 
Just to give the op another opinion ;)

I've changed from the standard clio Pas to a manual rack (same turns lock to lock 2.5 ish)

This was mainly due to 2 faults with the pas this year on track, but having driven the car with faulty pas and now with a manual rack, there's nothing in it, both are pretty heavy and for road use i'd recommend a different option, basically similar to what the clio cup racers run, a saxo electric pump to push fluid through the rack. (As per Burp's track car)

After cadwell tomorrow that's what i'll be doing, ditching the manual rack and refitting a pas clio rack, sourcing a saxo pump and hey presto, electric pas :D

I'm not going to get involved in the power gains/losses as i've no real hard evidence to back up any claims i make, but suffice to say i am quicker round a circuit with pas than without, not by much but enough for it too matter. Hence the reason i'll be going electric ;)

Chris
 
should be pretty straight forward if your handy with the tools ;)

Changing from pas to manual involved:

Remove all power steering hoses
Remove resevior
Remove steering rack (possible without dropping the subframe
Remove tie rods and track rod ends from pas rack

Fit Pas tie rods and track rod ends to manual rack
Fit manual rack
Check geom

For me to change back to electric/hydraulic Pas will involve:

Remove current manual rack
Fit new pas rack inc tie/track rods
make up some hydraulic hoses
fit saxo pump with integral resevior
Run wiring from (ign switch/fuel pump relay) to low side of Pas relay, run fused heavy cable from battery (or distribution block) to pas pump (via said relay)
connect a few earths

And that's it :D

I'll be doing the work on mine over the next 4 months or so as i completely strip and rebuild the entire car.

Chris
 
bradharding24 said:
Do you think that the alternator is a free spinning device because you have held one in your hands and the pulley spins freely when you try? What happens when the exciter voltage charges the magnetic field within the alternator when it is fitted to the car? Is it still a free spinning device?

The main problem is that there are two drag componenets on the alternator. Normal frictional drag and electrical drag. The more electrical devices you have in your car the more electrical drag there is on the alternator. For a normal passenger car i beleive the drag is about 2 hp.

The obvious solution is to fit a KERS system to the front brakes to power the cars electrics, and then you have your 'free' energy.
Click to expand...

no it causes a drag on the engine also, and yes your point is correct, moving to an electric hydro PAS setup will still cause the same issue, my point being is by reducing the items powered by the aux setup, you are reducing the effort the engine has to make, yes it still has to get the juice from somewhere, but the "feel" of the engine may be different

its an interesting one anyway, but generally i've found, clios (mk1 and mk2) "feel" quicker without AC + PAS
 
Fred said:
its an interesting one anyway, but generally i've found, clios (mk1 and mk2) "feel" quicker without AC + PAS
Click to expand...

I would always be inclined to associate this with faster pickup/throttle response (whatever you want to call it) as gains or no gains the engine requires less effort to rotate the aux assembly setup with less pulleys present, even if they are not a massive drag.
 
Theres some really interesting stuff being done here by you guys, apart from the slightly angry stuff its a good read

The idea with EPAS (Electric power assisted steering) systems is that they reduce the parasitic losses on the engine, hence manufacturers like BMW applying ZF's system to the 3-series. The idea is to continue developing the most fuel efficient vehicles possible, this will come with a slight performance gain. Not a lot, I don't dare mention a number.

But a traditional HPAS (hydraulic) system I am reliably told draws 2.5 to 3% of the engines power. This comes from constantly moving around about 8 liters of fluid and energizing the seals, etc. Also an EPAS system doesn't constantly hold pressure while driving in a straight line, it simply turns off. Hence recent claims of up to 6% improvements in mpg, which I think is a bit hopeful.

EHPAS (the system involving the saxo pump idea) is a halfway house, its pump slows from about 75,000 revs to around 1,000 when there is no steering request. Yet engineers haven't been able to come up with a system as efficient as full EPAS and the future looks like EHPAS and HPAS will be phased out.

Of course the power for an EPAS system needs to come from the car, but due to the reasons stated above HPAS needs to ask for more energy more of the time. It is by its nature less efficient I'm afraid.

The comments on the steering feel and efforts are all valid really because steering is an extremely subjective topic, its down to the individual to decide how they like their car to feel.
Is the Clio always assisted (1.0, 1.2, 1.4's etc)?
If so the whole platforms suspension geometry will be designed to allow greater loads through the steering arms, therefore greater efforts at the wheel. This can be compensated for by slowing the rack ratio, however as already mentioned this involves more turn lock to lock. Or if you can live with the greater efforts on the same rack ratio then no problem, unassisted steering will make your car more efficient.

The 1.2 rack idea sounded quite interesting, especially if you believe it runs a similar rack ratio? ("2.5ish", it doesn't take much to change on centre steering response considerably, but it does sound like you find it really nice!) Although parking efforts must be a bit tricky.

One more bit I read was regarding a HPAS rack without any fluid flow. Correctly put by someone else (with some cool rally clips) this is a nightmare !

Hope this helps the discussion, I think you can see I could ramble forever on this, Sorry!
 
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