power vs skill

[seb]

reading the thread about yozzas new engine made me think about sometihng.

has anyone decided to, instead of spending theirmoney on performance upgrades for their car, spent a few thousand on driving lessons to make you quicker with the car you actually have?

only reason ask this is cos yozza said he hoped the new engine would take a few seconds off his lap times and i thought maybe you could spend the money the otherway round. on skill rather than performance?

this isnt a dig at anyone at all cos in the ideal world i would (and i presume most people on this forum) would like to have the beast engine that yozza has and aslo to have some lessons to brush up their skills.

just a thought i had so dont read into it that i am dissing anyone cos i am not!

 

[Lagerlout]

Intersting point. Power is nothing without control as the saying goes.

Personally I think in terms of lap times I would benefit more from lessons.

yozzas already a decent driver, so the more power the better as far as hes concerned!!


[Edited by lagerlout1 on 31 August 2005 at 12:58pm]

 

[seb]

its always a point that interests me. Just reminds me of seeing people at the ring flying round in 318/320 bmws... all about the skills with them!

 

[Toypop]

Depends if you are a regular track day goer. A regular track day person probably would benefit from having lessons. I have found I can drive many seconds a lap quicker just by having an instructor alongside me saying do this do that. Id take an instructor over an extra 30bhp anyday even if they do add 65kg to the car.

However most RS Clio owners have never been to a track as a spectator let alone driven on one. Same goes for most people buying high performance road cars.

All they do is drag race down dual carriageways and that requires no skill at all especially as its almost always from a rolling start. Just change gear when the light comes on!

 

[Ali]

Lessons are one thing, but to become a good race car/kart driver, it takes alot of testin time/Money/Effort/Pressure on you and ur team, and most of all Races!

You could have the fastest car in the world and still be crap, Youve made a very good point seb, the more you test the more comfortable you will feel in the seat, and youll learn new things, find new limits to the car.

Last yr, we spent 1000s of hrs on the track tryin different motors/chassiss and components, but at the end of the day if your not menally and phyiscally geared up your building a bonfile with 20£ Notes.

 

[seb]

i have done courses due to work and the teacher was out of this world!

we did a three week course in a 2.0l mondeo, four up and it is amazing the pace you can drive at... truely outstanding.

it really improved myself as a driver and i think i am so much safer for it.

best expereince i have ever done

 

[benji&eka]

practise, practise, practise. and remember the unimpressive looking lap is usually the fastest. driving about wheels smokin and thowing it about doesnt get you anywhere except the gravel trap.

one thing ive noticed, most people tend when they are inexperanced to try to go round slow corners too fast and fast corners too slow.

 

[Pete]

Id say the skill over power everytime, I know the difference it makes.

 

[jon_r]

You only had to look at FCS this year. The standard of driving was appalling, to the point of being dangerous! - and that was just in Yozs car

 

[Darren S]

Good thread this.

Given the choice, I would much prefer a cheaper/slower car & instructor combo than a much more powerful car with just myself on the track. Gimme a three-week course in a Saxo VTS avec le instructeur, rather than me on my ownsome in a Cosworth anyday...

Anyone who thinks they are superb on the track and have nothing to learn are both naive and stupid - you can always learn something from another driver or instructor. Its just a shame that money and time are the two biggest constraints!

D.

 

[benji&eka]

Quote: Originally posted by Darren S on 31 August 2005


Good thread this.

Given the choice, I would much prefer a cheaper/slower car & instructor combo than a much more powerful car with just myself on the track. Gimme a three-week course in a Saxo VTS avec le instructeur, rather than me on my ownsome in a Cosworth anyday...

Anyone who thinks they are superb on the track and have nothing to learn are both naive and stupid - you can always learn something from another driver or instructor. Its just a shame that money and time are the two biggest constraints!

D.

very true

 

[Bezza4]

I have done a few car experience days, although you dont get a lot of laps for your money with the super car days, the few tips and instructions from the instructor really do help, and you can use the power you have got a lot more effectively.

 

[Bryan]

easily have skill over power, makes a massive difference

plus your lap times will always be quicker when you stay on the track, as a numpty driver youll spend a lot of time in the gravel traps

 

[Ali]

Howeva what i will say is that to be good at soemthing you have to hav the initial raw talent! Niki clelland son of John, is utter sh*te!!!! Hes had hundreds of thousands spent on him and hes couldnt drive a pram! Howeva, Folk like ed pead, Jonny adams, Lewis hamilton are AMAZIN, superstars at best, no money but they have the tallent and esteem.

 

[steamywindows]

ive done my pass plus lessons i think that would knock a good 1:30 off everyones ring time

 

[y0z2a]

I took a 1.4 auto corsa out to Bruntingthorpe on Bank Holiday monday and was pissing off mini cooper Ss no end.

If you can carry speed and can brake firmly controlled and late, or not brake at all then you will go quicker. Some of the quickest cars at trackdays are standard aside from maybe brakes, its just that they have good drivers behind the wheel.

some people just want more horses under their toes to be honest.

Jon_r - you are going to be tied in at the next trackday and taken for 20 laps (sorry, lashes)

;-)

look at Sabine taking a transit around the ring in under 10 minutes - skill is far more important than power.

When you have good skill you can use more power / better set-up to go even quicker on the limit.

/y0z

 

[y0z2a]

Quote: Originally posted by Toypop on 31 August 2005
<FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #407db6">Depends if you are a regular track day goer. A regular track day person probably would benefit from having lessons. I have found I can drive many seconds a lap quicker just by having an instructor alongside me saying do this do that. Id take an instructor over an extra 30bhp anyday even if they do add 65kg to the car.However most RS Clio owners have never been to a track as a spectator let alone driven on one. Same goes for most people buying high performance road cars.All they do is drag race down dual carriageways and that requires no skill at all especially as its almost always from a rolling start. Just change gear when the light comes on!



very true this here. the other thing is that people will spend thousands on more power and then shove stereos and everything else in to weigh themselves down more.

the balance is what you want from performance and how much p**n* look you want. some people like both, and it is a compromise between p**n* / power / £££

learning to drive and having a standard stereo would make you a lot faster than having huge stereo / more power / and spending £1000 on "bits" - however, you might look the mutts nuts. It depends on what people would like to get from it all.

LOL

/y0z

 

[y0z2a]

Quote: Originally posted by jon_r on 31 August 2005
You only had to look at FCS this year. The standard of driving was appalling, to the point of being dangerous! - and that was just in Yozs car


there were some "special drivers" out there that day and i am talking about on the track for the day, not for the CS lot.

/y0z

 

[dk]

Quote: Originally posted by y0z2a on 31 August 2005

I took a 1.4 auto corsa out to Bruntingthorpe on Bank Holiday monday and was pissing off mini cooper Ss no end.

If you can carry speed and can brake firmly controlled and late, or not brake at all then you will go quicker. Some of the quickest cars at trackdays are standard aside from maybe brakes, its just that they have good drivers behind the wheel.

some people just want more horses under their toes to be honest.

Jon_r - you are going to be tied in at the next trackday and taken for 20 laps (sorry, lashes)

;-)

look at Sabine taking a transit around the ring in under 10 minutes - skill is far more important than power.

When you have good skill you can use more power / better set-up to go even quicker on the limit.

/y0z

oh no she didnt

 

[dk]

this is the same theory as the 182 vs. V6 on track, its alright having all that power as long as you can use it.

 

[Ali]

v6 would win lol

 

[v6Max]

I look at this way Ive spent about 2k in tuition - mainly high performance driving, creative car control rather than track specific. If I spent the same on the vee it would make the car a bit quicker but its just that car. If you make the driver quicker thats a portable performance upgrade - if you see what I mean. It means I have the "skill" to drive any of our fleet cars quickly(ish) in the right environment.

Too many people are throwing thousands at their cars in the hope it will make them quick. Sort yourself out first then worry about the car.

If you think its only a track thing then you would be wrong. The skills you get taught will allow you to drive quickly in any environment and you get a very rapid appreciation of why so many people end up rolling their cars or wrapping them round a lamp post!

Just in case anyone is interested; Don Palmer is the guy to go to if you want to really see what is possible/gain an understanding of how a car behaves at its limits.



[Edited by v6Max on 31 August 2005 at 4:34pm]

 

[dk]

Quote: Originally posted by AJRMOTORSPORT on 31 August 2005

v6 would win lol

did that thread ever reach an answer?

 

[u33db]

I would rather have the power TBH as usually it means the entire car setup is vastly supeior and will compensate for lesser talent. True, an excellent driver can keep up in a relatively poor car but at the end of the day a well setup car count for so much more.

I seem to remember Frank Willliams saying something similar in regard to his F1 drivers. IIRC at the time his cars were at the peak and had Hill/Coultard/Villenueve...all of which have not shone as well in other cars as their williams performance led people to beleive they would.

 

[Chili Red]

Id love some advanced driving lessons on a track to find out a bit more about what the car can really do. I may have been driving for 15 years but I know theres LOOOOADDSSS more I could learn, and Id rather spend money on improving my skills than making the car faster.

 

[Clarkie172]

id like to have lessons but then again......a fast car is nice too if you class yourself as a decent driver anyway, i bet u couldnt get your lap times down THAT much with lessons tbh. put them both together tho (and loads of money)........

 

[skip123]

does anyone have a link to a company that offeres these days out? as i think when i jump in the V6 when i get one il need some lessons to keep it in one peice! getting it for my 21st b-day and only been driving 2.5 years i can comftobly get the arse end out on my vts and think i can drive pretty well but like everyones been saying these days out in ur own car with a PROPPA driver will do you ALOT of justice!

i need to know rough costs?

how many days its over?

can u use your own cars?

what you learn i.e skidpan {dounuts} lol ect

and what tracks host such events?



many thanks ian

 

[Ali]

Quote: Originally posted by dave182 on 31 August 2005

Quote: Originally posted by AJRMOTORSPORT on 31 August 2005

v6 would win lol

did that thread ever reach an answer?

Did it helll....it got naaaassstttyyy! lol.

As dougal says, if youve got the equipment and a car thatll do the times, its down to you...No excuses.

Just look at the star in a reasonably priced car/shed. Thats all down to driver skill.

 

[v6Max]

skip123

You could look at http://www.donpalmer.co.uk/www.donpalmer.co.uk or http://www.carlimits.com/www.carlimits.com

Rough costs are (for Don Palmer) about £400 for a day. There will normally be 3 of you on any course and they take place at Bruntingthorpe. It all happens in your own car and is very informal.

What you learn is largely up to you but initially the courses are about understanding how the car behaves at the limit, how you behave at the limit and how to control the car properly.

Most of the courses involve some kind of coned based circuit which allows you to practice high speed cornering and low speed sharp conering where you will learn you to use oversteer to get round them.

In real terms you will be driving enough during the day to feel that youve got good value from it.

The other option is to look at training that takes place based around a track-day. I cant advertise here, that would be wrong, but if you PM me I can let you have more information. In this kind of training you will typically pay less, the day is based around a normal track day and is a combination of on track and lesson based tuition.

There is a difference between the 2 types of training; one is focused on making you a quick track driver, understanding the technical aspects of track driving. The other is focused on giving you an understanding of how to drive at high speed in any environment and understand "creative car control".

Ive done both types of tuition and it absolutely does work. If I had £400 to spend tomorrow on the car I would forget all about carbon fibre , exhausts, IKs etc and have more tuition.

 

[skip123]

pm sent