Renault going all electric from 2025

[botfch]

Will it ever even be possible to produce enough electric to charge millions of cars overnight at the same time? And if they manage to produce that amount wont it just pass on the emissions from the cars to the place where they produce the juice? I'm assuming solar can't be used as the source since the majority of people will be charging at night and they don't have the ability to store that kind of energy from the days 🌞, especially since the UK's weather is mostly s**t anyway. So they'll have to use nuclear, wind farm or burn the fuel, so how does that save on emissions overall? And when you consider the manufacturing processes for the amount of batteries that would have to be made just to power the UK's cars surely working on cleaner engines or fuels would be a better way forward? I'm literally guessing at all of that and I'm genuinely curious to the answers, I remember a guy years ago telling me that ethanol was the best option as it literally produces water out of the exhaust as well as increasing the power from an engine, now that could be totally wrong but I'd like to hear your guys opinions on that?

Too put it simply yes, evs are going to be far greener and efficient than burning fuel can ever be, even if they are supplied by fossil fuel power stations.
It saves on emissions because it consolidates them to a single focal point where carbon capture technology can be used.

The main issue for the UK is getting planning permission for new plants, notoriously difficult because of the nimbyism.

 

[Dameo220]

Too put it simply yes, evs are going to be far greener and efficient than burning fuel can ever be, even if they are supplied by fossil fuel power stations.
It saves on emissions because it consolidates them to a single focal point where carbon capture technology can be used.

The main issue for the UK is getting planning permission for new plants, notoriously difficult because of the nimbyism.

Ahh I see, I never considered being able to control the output of carbon from one place rather than separate vehicles. But what about the ethanol route? If water is in fact all it produces how come it isn't being looked into as a petrol replacement? Is it purely the cost to make it?

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Ahh I see, I never considered being able to control the output of carbon from one place rather than separate vehicles. But what about the ethanol route? If water is in fact all it produces how come it isn't being looked into as a petrol replacement? Is it purely the cost to make it?

They already use 100% renewable bioethanol in le mans and wrc, made from wine residues from the French agricultural industry.

TotalEnergies to introduce a 100% renewable fuel at the 24 Hours of Le Mans and at the FIA World Endurance Championship (WEC) | 24h-lemans.com

TotalEnergies is developing a 100% renewable fuel for motorsport competition, to be introduced from next season at the FIA World Endurance Championship (WEC), including the 24 Hours of Le Mans 2022, and at the European Le Mans Series (ELMS).

www.24h-lemans.com

 

[botfch]

Ahh I see, I never considered being able to control the output of carbon from one place rather than separate vehicles. But what about the ethanol route? If water is in fact all it produces how come it isn't being looked into as a petrol replacement? Is it purely the cost to make it?

I assume you mean hydrogen, ethanol is biofuel like veg oil etc?

If you mean hydrogen it’s difficult to make, distribute and ultimately less efficient than using electric.
It will likely be used for traditional diesel usage like ships & heavy plant vs passenger cars.

 

[Darren S]

Ignoring the fact that no one has yet made a light EV sports car, the only things you lose by having an electric drivetrain are vibration and noise.

That's it.

My i3 is far removed from being like my Clio 172 Cup, but if that electric drivetrain could be packaged into a 172 Cup body without any weight penalty, the driver engagement for me would still be there.

Surely the packaging will improve? And if it does, would the lack of noise and vibration really matter that much?

Having now driven 1300 miles pushed along by electrons, I can say for me it really doesn't. The pros far outweigh the cons.

Probably not on its own. But a few years ago I was driving around a go-kart circuit near Praga, Portugal on a slightly knackered, single cylinder kart with a distinctive flat-spot around third way on the throttle.

I had a lot of fun getting this old clunker of a kart around the track, all the while trying to minimise the impact of the flat-spot. It was great - the weather was spot on, my clothes stunk of fumes and I didn't even set a decent time.

Fast forward to a mate's stag do more recently and we went karting under electric power. Even though neither kart had gears to contend with - the battery fed experience was a whole lot more 'clinical'. It was fast, smooth and still fun. But it felt sanitised on so many levels - and not only with my lungs! It just did what it did without drama and fuss - ultimately feeling rather staid because of it.

I'm hardly saying that the lawnmower sound was epic either on the Portuguese kart. But that, along with its quirky (fecked) power delivery, the waft of heat, the vibration and of course the smell - all added to the experience in their own little ways.

 

[Dameo220]

I assume you mean hydrogen, ethanol is biofuel like veg oil etc?

If you mean hydrogen it’s difficult to make, distribute and ultimately less efficient than using electric.
It will likely be used for traditional diesel usage like ships & heavy plant vs passenger cars.

No I did mean ethanol, was told it was basically pure alcohol but I'm just repeating what I was told, I had no idea that the wrc use that until the post above, even though I'm a huge fan of the sport, I've never really been that interested in what fuels were used etc until I realised electric may soon be the only option for us with our road cars. I'm not liking the idea of the change tbh

 

[Robbie Corbett]

People who think they will be aloud to tinker with their ev, modify, repair etc need to remember that you can't fit a plug socket in your bathroom... That's 230v, do you really think any nanny state is going to let regular folk go near 600+ volts?

It might be unclear or grey now but give it a few years and no one will repairing a thing. Car manufacturers want that and will push for it.

EV in some ways is appealing, but mostly represents the end to the only solid interest I have had for as long as I can remember. There is room for both, let non car folk drive EV, make it financially attractive without punishing people for having a normal fossil burning car and the majority will switch over time without totally draining all the fun out of life for the others.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

I assume you mean hydrogen, ethanol is biofuel like veg oil etc?

If you mean hydrogen it’s difficult to make, distribute and ultimately less efficient than using electric.
It will likely be used for traditional diesel usage like ships & heavy plant vs passenger cars.

It's difficult to make at this point in time, just as lithium ion batteries were hard to make 20 years ago.

You have a gas boiler right?

I think the problem is more than large companies haven't figured out how to make enough money out of pushing it. Govt. are daft not to push hydrogen as fuel taxation would be readily transferred over.

 

[charltjr]

Making hydrogen is energy intensive. The maths are pretty simple, you can use power to make hydrogen, compress it, transport it, store it before it is transferred to a car and then use it to power a fuel cell to provide electricity to batteries (or, if you’re crazy and don’t mind NOx emissions and 30% efficiency, burn it in an ICE). There are costs at every stage.

Alternately, you can use the power to directly charge a battery in an EV.

The economics of using Hydrogen as a fuel for passenger cars just don’t stack up. It has it’s place and I’m sure it will be a useful part of the energy mix in future - boilers moving from natural gas to a mix containing H2 for example, but not for passenger cars.

 

[botfch]

It's difficult to make at this point in time, just as lithium ion batteries were hard to make 20 years ago.

You have a gas boiler right?

I think the problem is more than large companies haven't figured out how to make enough money out of pushing it. Govt. are daft not to push hydrogen as fuel taxation would be readily transferred over.

True the initial development costs are massive. I’m not sure what we spent but it was millions before the company decided it was unfeasible without billions of government subsidy and stopped it.

 

[botfch]

No I did mean ethanol, was told it was basically pure alcohol but I'm just repeating what I was told, I had no idea that the wrc use that until the post above, even though I'm a huge fan of the sport, I've never really been that interested in what fuels were used etc until I realised electric may soon be the only option for us with our road cars. I'm not liking the idea of the change tbh

That stuff will still be around for niche stuff like racing and classic cars etc.
Harry’s Garage did a bit on it not so long ago worked out to be about £3 a litre.

Not enough land to mass produce on the scale required to take over from crude.

 

[leonf]

I can see absolutely no reason to replace my '04 Clio v6. AND my children will love me for it when I die as its value then will be through the roof.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Making hydrogen is energy intensive. The maths are pretty simple, you can use power to make hydrogen, compress it, transport it, store it before it is transferred to a car and then use it to power a fuel cell to provide electricity to batteries (or, if you’re crazy and don’t mind NOx emissions and 30% efficiency, burn it in an ICE). There are costs at every stage.

Alternately, you can use the power to directly charge a battery in an EV.

The economics of using Hydrogen as a fuel for passenger cars just don’t stack up. It has it’s place and I’m sure it will be a useful part of the energy mix in future - boilers moving from natural gas to a mix containing H2 for example, but not for passenger cars.

I believe its more like 40% efficiency running an ICE on hydrogen. There are real advantages such as refuel times etc.

There is a fairly large issue with wind/solar farms in that their output is not consistent, for years now there have been discussions about energy storage to average outputs. Perhaps hydrogen would be a good form of energy storage for offshore windfarms. I would also transport it (perhaps its not possible?) the same way they transport natural gas...

There are various ways to remove NOx which work well, CO2 is nill obviously. There was quite a lot of work done 30 odd years ago when lean burn engines were being developed as the NOx from a lean/high combustion temperature engines is very high. There have been hundreds of millions of man hours spent developing combustion engines, seems a shame to just throw all that on the fire now.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

I believe its more like 40% efficiency running an ICE on hydrogen. There are real advantages such as refuel times etc.

There is a fairly large issue with wind/solar farms in that their output is not consistent, for years now there have been discussions about energy storage to average outputs. Perhaps hydrogen would be a good form of energy storage for offshore windfarms. I would also transport it (perhaps its not possible?) the same way they transport natural gas...

There are various ways to remove NOx which work well, CO2 is nill obviously. There was quite a lot of work done 30 odd years ago when lean burn engines were being developed as the NOx from a lean/high combustion temperature engines is very high. There have been hundreds of millions of man hours spent developing combustion engines, seems a shame to just throw all that on the fire now.

Toyota developed a hydrogen combustion engine which competed in an endurance race, with a few hiccups they finished the race. They talk about the 2 types of hydrogen, one being fully green and another less so, Its been a while since I watched this.

"a complete shift to bev's could eliminate 1 million jobs here in Japan"



There are claims of 400-500hp hydrogen combustion engines and progress in synthetic fuels, Im anxious to know how things progress over the next few years. I dont know about you but just putting the key in the ignition gets me excited, knowing whats about to 'come to life'. Even the metal clicking after a drive is amusing, its all part of the experience. I just hope I can continue to enjoy my passion, which is partly the feeling of driving, something that a 2 ton electric powered and steered car will never have.

 

[Brett]

Very true, bikes will be going the same way aswell. Dreading it.

I’m going to buy a brand new ICE bike in 2034 (or 2029 if they move the goal posts) and keep it forever.

I can live with an electric car but not bike.

 

[charltjr]

I believe its more like 40% efficiency running an ICE on hydrogen. There are real advantages such as refuel times etc.

There is a fairly large issue with wind/solar farms in that their output is not consistent, for years now there have been discussions about energy storage to average outputs. Perhaps hydrogen would be a good form of energy storage for offshore windfarms. I would also transport it (perhaps its not possible?) the same way they transport natural gas...

There are various ways to remove NOx which work well, CO2 is nill obviously. There was quite a lot of work done 30 odd years ago when lean burn engines were being developed as the NOx from a lean/high combustion temperature engines is very high. There have been hundreds of millions of man hours spent developing combustion engines, seems a shame to just throw all that on the fire now.

The refuel time is certainly an advantage, but storage and transport is an issue. If you transport hydrogen in existing gas lines it still has to be compressed at the delivery end to be any use for cars and then there are the high pressure tanks needed on the car itself. These are lifed components and very expensive - although with economies of scale no doubt that would come down. Pipelines and pumps need to be specially designed as H2 is tough on them.

I don't doubt that H2 will have it's place somewhere in the energy mix for transport, but it's going to be a niche. It just can't compete with the "well to wheel" efficiency of a BEV, and a lack of efficiency means extra cost for the consumer.

Japan's motor companies bet the farm on H2 because Japan had abundant nuclear energy which allowed cracking water to make economic sense for them. If they could sufficiently develop H2 fuel cell cars then they could dominate, and it was a good plan to be fair based on what was known at the time. Unfortunately for them, Tesla stole a march on everyone by making BEVs a profitable business and Fukashima happened. Japan pivoted away from nuclear power (stupidly, IMO, but that's another debate!) so even for the domestic market H2 makes little sense and they are desperately struggling to catch up.

The energy storage question is a good one, but H2 is a terrible energy store. What is needed from an energy store is minimal losses, but by the time it's been either burnt or through a fuel cell to release the energy you can kiss goodbye to at least 50% of the input energy.

I do like the idea of keeping the character of an ICE, but honestly I think it's all over bar the shouting. BEV has the momentum, economies of scale are just beginning to kick in and for most people the way they drive will be far preferable to an ICE.

 

[botfch]

To bring this slightly back on track Alpines put together an electric versions of the A110.
They’ve managed to reduce the drivetrain weight from 400kg to 260kg, 4.5s to 60 and a 260 mile range.

Naturally you won’t actually be able to buy one of these as in true Renault fashion it’s only a concept car.

 

[charltjr]

It’s a hopeful sign for the future though.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

It’s a hopeful sign for the future though.

Is it?

 

[MarkCup]

It’s a hopeful sign for the future though.

Is it?

I think it absolutely is.

Eventually you'll have an A110 EV that weighs no more than the current ICE version, has plenty of range, and charges in 30 minutes.

Apart from no noise from several thousand controlled explosions every minute, that's every anti-EV box ticked...and it's not really that far away.

 

[charltjr]

Given that EV is the future, then in that context yes it absolutely is.

ICE isn’t going away, there will be enough out there for decades to come and for those who truly love (and can afford) them they will still have that choice. People still ride horses and drive steam tractors.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

I don't think that is going to be a reality for a long time tbh.

Yes if you are ok to compromise range. A current generation Lithium Ion 60Kwh battery is around 415Kg. Yes battery technology will continue to improve (up until a point, forget the majority of news paper articles claiming a 200% increase break through), yes electronics will improve increasing both motor efficiency and also the efficiency of chargers --- both are actually already quite high.

Right now with 2022 tech you are looking at a combined drivetrain and battery weight of probably 500Kg plus all of the associated cooling equipment and electronics (they weigh a fair bit!)

Compared with 150kg of engine and gearbox (less for the new 1.8?) and 33Kg of fuel (45liters) - so 200Kg ish drivetrain, engine and fuel.

So unless you compromise range or performance I don't think we will see a real 1000kg A110 EV anytime soon. IMO there is a good chance we will see the opposite over the next 10 years. Where we compromise battery capacity to try to move away from lithium. Thats not a bad thing really in that most people would be just fine with a little shopping cart and 50 mile range.

Don't get me wrong (entirely) I am not fully against EV. I am against removing peoples choice - EV should displace the majority of ICE by being a more practical/cheaper alternative - not by banning ICE all together.

I would be quite happy with a daily EV, with an interesting old car in the garage run on synthetic fuel for occasional weekend fun however the way things are going a compromise like that will not be possible.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Is it possible to use SAF (sustainable aviation fuel) in cars with a few tweaks? Cause that will be around for many generations 😄

 

[botfch]

Is it possible to use SAF (sustainable aviation fuel) in cars with a few tweaks? Cause that will be around for many generations 😄

Full of lead so might work in something really old.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I don't think that is going to be a reality for a long time tbh.

Yes if you are ok to compromise range. A current generation Lithium Ion 60Kwh battery is around 415Kg. Yes battery technology will continue to improve (up until a point, forget the majority of news paper articles claiming a 200% increase break through), yes electronics will improve increasing both motor efficiency and also the efficiency of chargers --- both are actually already quite high.

Right now with 2022 tech you are looking at a combined drivetrain and battery weight of probably 500Kg plus all of the associated cooling equipment and electronics (they weigh a fair bit!)

Compared with 150kg of engine and gearbox (less for the new 1.8?) and 33Kg of fuel (45liters) - so 200Kg ish drivetrain, engine and fuel.

So unless you compromise range or performance I don't think we will see a real 1000kg A110 EV anytime soon. IMO there is a good chance we will see the opposite over the next 10 years. Where we compromise battery capacity to try to move away from lithium. Thats not a bad thing really in that most people would be just fine with a little shopping cart and 50 mile range.

Don't get me wrong (entirely) I am not fully against EV. I am against removing peoples choice - EV should displace the majority of ICE by being a more practical/cheaper alternative - not by banning ICE all together.

I would be quite happy with a daily EV, with an interesting old car in the garage run on synthetic fuel for occasional weekend fun however the way things are going a compromise like that will not be possible.

I think that's the thing that scares me about EVs. I don't care if my daily becomes EV, but I still want to be able to enjoy old ICE-powered cars. I worry that it won't be realistic though. People wheel out the, "but people didn't stop riding horses when the car came along" line, but the distinct difference is that horses weren't banned when the car came along. I can see some governments trying to outlaw ICE cars altogether. At best, I think we'll see a situation where whatever fuel is available (be it synthetic or dinosaur juice) is so expensive that it will be the preserve of only the wealthy. The future does not look bright for petrolheads in my view.

 

[charltjr]

I don't think there's any point in a total ICE ban. The numbers on the road will drop to the point where the emissions are a drop in the bucket and it would heavily penalise the poorest who tend to drive the oldest, cheapest cars. Politically it will be better to let it just happen over time and blame market forces.

Unfortunately though I think you're right about them becoming the preserve of the wealthy. Once the economies of scale start to drop off for petrol production and distribution today's prices will seem like a fond memory of good times

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I don't think there's any point in a total ICE ban. The numbers on the road will drop to the point where the emissions are a drop in the bucket and it would heavily penalise the poorest who tend to drive the oldest, cheapest cars. Politically it will be better to let it just happen over time and blame market forces.

Unfortunately though I think you're right about them becoming the preserve of the wealthy. Once the economies of scale start to drop off for petrol production and distribution today's prices will seem like a fond memory of good times

I hope you're right, but it feels like the worm is turning and that there is a growing amount of anti-ICE sentiment. It may not be necessary to ban them outright, but I think there are some noisy folk out there that would take a great deal of pleasure from achieving such an end.

 

[Ricardos]

I hope you're right, but it feels like the worm is turning and that there is a growing amount of anti-ICE sentiment. It may not be necessary to ban them outright, but I think there are some noisy folk out there that would take a great deal of pleasure from achieving such an end.

You'll be made to feel that guilty about what the ICE does you won't wanna turn the key. Once the generation of Castrol R smelling people are gone you'll be left with a world of Great Thunbergs

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

You'll be made to feel that guilty about what the ICE does you won't wanna turn the key. Once the generation of Castrol R smelling people are gone you'll be left with a world of Great Thunbergs

It could very well go that way sadly. Hopefully we'll be enough of a minority that people won't bother to try and stop it, but who knows, as the car is such a massive part of our lives at the moment. Regardless of what happens, it's going to be an interesting time.