Renault K4M 1.6 16v Questions

[Martin_172]

Im looking at buying a Renault K4M 1.6 16v engine pretty soon for a conversion and just looking for some info on them. ive never done a conversion before so its all new to me but im really willing to learn and don’t mind getting my hands dirty also got plenty mates who have done conversions before to help me along the way. I need as much info as possible as were hoping to get it all planned then blitz it over one weekend!

NOTE: before anyone brings the idea up, I CANT afford to buy a 1.6 16v Clio and I CANT afford to buy or insure a 172 keeping in mind that once this is all done (if I go ahead with it) ill still only be 18


Are all the engines identical and produce the exact same power from the megane, Clio and Laguna? So basically any engine will do? Also I remember hearing that some are VVT and some are non VVT, what year did they bring VVT in and I assume I want a VVT engine? If not why not?

Next up what parts can be used from other engines, I understand I can use a throttle body from a 2.0 16v F4R 172 engine (65mm instead of 55mm I think) but what else if anything?

Now for suspension and brakes, rear drums are fine as well as my 259mm vented disks (since this is what 1.6 16v's run anyway) and ebc green stuff pads. My car has the apex -60mm kit will this be fine on the 1.6 16v (I assume so?)

Now for the exhaust, is there any difference between the standard exhaust system on the 1.2 16v and 1.6 16v? just wondering if a cat back with sports cat will fit on the 1.6 if I was to get one for the 1.2 the now.

Next up I need to find out what goodies to buy, im looking for fast road cams, a good exhaust manifold and a good exhaust system with a sports cat and any other reasonably cheap performance goodies to get me started, any manufacturers recommended for the above items? (Might just keep it standard for now for insurance as a conversion is going to kill me as it is!)

Now the boring part! Insurance etc. im doing this properly so I need a list of everything that needs done regarding the log book and insurance. Is there any way to insure this as just a normal 1.6 16v instead of a conversion? I was told something about having to get a garage to check it over and send away something to say its had a new engine and all has been done properly? This true?

Sorry for all the questions guys just trying to clear some things up, thanks in advance for all the help ill hopefully receive

Martin.

 

[16v_jon]

erm.... a lot of money for 35 more bhp if you ask me BUT you obviously have your mind set on it!
before you start get an insurance quote just insure it as a 1.6 16v once you update your records on the dvla it will be a clio dymanique 1598cc so no need to tell them its a conversion.
it doesnt need to be inspected its not an engine ment for a different car
exhaust is different on a 1.6 manifold goes further down cat is pre heated

 

[Martin_172]

see problem is, mine is an expression model which as far as i know didnt come in a 1.6 16v only a 1.4 16v. i can afford to insure a 1.6 16v clio no problem, so thats all i would tell the insurance company it was? (once the dvla records were sorted)

also i know its only a 35bhp difference but its a lot more insurance friendly than a 2.0 for a younger guy plus that guy on here managed to get his to 132bhp with pretty simple mods (cams, exhaust, remap etc) which is nearly a 60bhp gain which isn't bad.


also the main thing i forgot to ask, ive not priced a 1.6 16v engine/gearbox before, only 1.2 16v. anyone got a rough idea of how much they cost, and how much it will cost overall keeping in mind there will be no labour costs.

 

[Martin_172]

hmm well after watching some speedo videos and compairing them to mine i found a 1.6 16v to pull from 4mph to 60mph in EXACTLY the same time to my slightly modded 1.2 16v :S

doesnt seem so good anymore, suppose numbers arnt everything!!

 

[16v_jon]

your gonna pay a similar cost to a 172 conversion IMO esp when your talking about modding the engine itself, i would get a quote first for both and then decide

 

[Caramel]

would you put a 1.2 in 1.0 car?

 

[16v_jon]

would you put a 1.2 in 1.0 car?

eh?

Martin is looking for a replacement as his has done a fair ammount of miles

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Im looking at buying a Renault K4M 1.6 16v engine pretty soon for a conversion and just looking for some info on them. ive never done a conversion before so its all new to me but im really willing to learn and don’t mind getting my hands dirty also got plenty mates who have done conversions before to help me along the way. I need as much info as possible as were hoping to get it all planned then blitz it over one weekend!

NOTE: before anyone brings the idea up, I CANT afford to buy a 1.6 16v Clio and I CANT afford to buy or insure a 172 keeping in mind that once this is all done (if I go ahead with it) ill still only be 18


Are all the engines identical and produce the exact same power from the megane, Clio and Laguna? So basically any engine will do? Also I remember hearing that some are VVT and some are non VVT, what year did they bring VVT in and I assume I want a VVT engine? If not why not?


There are basically existing 3 different types of the K4M engine, with mechanical throttle and w/o inlet VVT, with electronic throttle and with inlet VVT, with electronic throttle and with VVT (e.g. MeganeII) about +5hp than the others.

Next up what parts can be used from other engines, I understand I can use a throttle body from a 2.0 16v F4R 172 engine (65mm instead of 55mm I think) but what else if anything?


works only with an engine with mechnical throttle.


Now for suspension and brakes, rear drums are fine as well as my 259mm vented disks (since this is what 1.6 16v's run anyway) and ebc green stuff pads. My car has the apex -60mm kit will this be fine on the 1.6 16v (I assume so?)

Now for the exhaust, is there any difference between the standard exhaust system on the 1.2 16v and 1.6 16v? just wondering if a cat back with sports cat will fit on the 1.6 if I was to get one for the 1.2 the now.

Next up I need to find out what goodies to buy, im looking for fast road cams, a good exhaust manifold and a good exhaust system with a sports cat and any other reasonably cheap performance goodies to get me started, any manufacturers recommended for the above items? (Might just keep it standard for now for insurance as a conversion is going to kill me as it is!)


Supersprint has a good exhaust manifold that replaces the pre-cat, and catcams nice cams.
Biggest Problem at this engine is, that the intakemanifold ist not suitable for revolutions over 6500rpm, because the channels are too long and thin. Infortunately the cylinder distance between the K-engine family and the F-engines is about 10mm smaller so that the RS manifold will not fit...

 

[Oliver_K4M]

[edit]There are basically existing 3 different types of the K4M engine, with mechanical throttle and w/o inlet VVT, with electronic throttle and w/o inlet VVT, with electronic throttle and with VVT (e.g. MeganeII) about +5hp than the others.[/edit]


sorry

 

[Martin_172]

would you put a 1.2 in 1.0 car?

if you need a new engine and were putting all that effort into fitting it then why not make it worth while and do somthing different?

Oliver_K4M, thanks for all your help, in your opinion what engine is the better one to go for, Mechanical throttle w/o VVT (with F4R throttle body) or electric throttle with VVT (with about 5bhp more than mechanical non VVT engine)?

 

[Oliver_K4M]

If equipped with electric throttle, the K4M and the F4R have the same throttle, equal if it´s the K4M with or without VVT.

I have the K4M-760 with VVT in my MéganeII, I can´t say that this engine is much better than the engine w/o VVT, O.K., the Megane is much heavier.

I had both engine on the bench, my Mégane, nearly stock, only a K&N replacement filter, the stock exhaust beginning after the cat of the 2.0T with 163hp and platinum spark plugs see the diagramm:

http://home.vrweb.de/~seegi/mein_meggi/leistung_megane.jpg

http://home.vrweb.de/~seegi/mein_meggi/drehmoment_megane.jpg

And my Clio, done a lot to the engine (see my hp for more details) diagramm:

http://home.vrweb.de/~alexandra.hoch/Neuer_Ordner/leistung_5ter.jpg

http://home.vrweb.de/~alexandra.hoch/Neuer_Ordner/drehmoment_5ter.jpg

In my opinion if it´s about a sporty engine it´s better to the mecanical throttle, so you are the boss if it´s open or not and not the ECU. The VVT would have the advantage that you can use a sportier cam and not to rise the idling speed too much. My engine with the catcams cam idles now at 1,200rpm and and sometimes it stalls still.....

The best, but also the most expensive solution would be using a old K4M-engine and put on it the new cylinder head with VVT. The Siemens Sirius32 ECU that´s used e.g. also on the K4M-720 has the hardware pins and also the software implemented to controll a oil-switching valve, because it´s also used for the ClioRS Ph.1 engines, you need only a dataset that´s suitable for this so tuned engine. And it´s necessary to widen the channels a little bit to improve breathing over 6500rpm.

Also a good choice is the "normal" F4R engine (F4R-700 or F4R-780) as it was in the Laguna or Espace. You get these engine normally cheaper that the hot F4R from the RS and equipped with the stock cams from the RS (which you normally can also get from People who tuned their RS...) it´s O.K. for about 150hp. A friend of mine has it so equipped in a Clio Mk.1, and this means endless torque, much better than the old Willi engine...

 

[Andy_J]

I might give you my k4m and running gear as i plan on converting to 172 soon.. Like maybe the end of the month!

only prob is, i'm ph1.

 

[MATT BLACK]

K4M 748 manual throttle body

K4M 744 fly by wire

Stick to the above engine codes depending on which type you need and you will find they will fit easily with no problems

 

[Andy_J]

So i can fit a 172 TB to my k4m 748? would i see any performace increase?

 

[Oliver_K4M]

So i can fit a 172 TB to my k4m 748? would i see any performace increase?

No, not a 172 TB, musst be one of the normal F4R (e.g. F4R-780) with 140hp!

in parallel I increased the fuel pressure to 3.8bars for better instationary behaviour (avoid lean peaks).

 

[Andy_J]

so what gains would i see from that?

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Better response, because same throttle position opens bigger area (you can calculate ist exactly 55mm to 65mm...) and some powerincrease at high rpm. Costs about €150,- here in Germany

 

[MATT BLACK]

The F4R 780 lump is from a laguna 99 model - ive loads of throttle bodies in stock.

 

[theduck]

How much are you looking at spending?? might have an option for you.

 

[bmh.01]

hmm well after watching some speedo videos and compairing them to mine i found a 1.6 16v to pull from 4mph to 60mph in EXACTLY the same time to my slightly modded 1.2 16v :S

doesnt seem so good anymore, suppose numbers arnt everything!!

I've come from a 1.2 16v to a 1.6 16v and believe me there is an absolute world of difference between the two.
For a start the 1.6 doesn't die as soon as you add more than 3 passengers and the extra torque makes it so much more easy to drive.
The 1.6 pulls to a ton as easily as the 1.2 pulls to 60, its only after a ton it started to die off though i've had mine to 125 indicated without too much trouble on my private road and that wasn't flat out. The 1.2 took some time to get to a ton.

Despite what the videos may look like the 1.6 is in a different league to the 1.2.

http://media.putfile.com/clio-16-16v-0-100

Thats a 0-100 run and if your 1.2 is as fast as that then its certainly a special one, by the way thats when I was only taking it to 6k before I realised that it drops into the power band much better if you take it just a bit further so thats a pretty poor 0-60.

I love mine, the only upgrade I can see at the moment is to an RS which will be the next step.

 

[G_F]

Despite what the videos may look like the 1.6 is in a different league to the 1.2.

http://media.putfile.com/clio-16-16v-0-100

Thats a 0-100 run and if your 1.2 is as fast as that then its certainly a special one, by the way thats when I was only taking it to 6k before I realised that it drops into the power band much better if you take it just a bit further so thats a pretty poor 0-60.

I love mine, the only upgrade I can see at the moment is to an RS which will be the next step.

Hey thats not bad, with my trusty stop watch i got the following times..

0-60 - 8.27secs
0-80 - 14.65secs
0-100 - 25.78secs

and the fact that you wernt ragging the pants off it aswell makes them very good times i thinks:race:

 

[Martin_172]

does look a bit faster but nothing majour, its the extra torque im looking for also just found out today that theres a possibility that ive got a fuked head gasket AND rocker cover gasket

think im going to buy a 1.6 16v do a bit of work to it, run the 1.2 into the ground then do the conversion.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Good plan!

 

[Andy_J]

The F4R 780 lump is from a laguna 99 model - ive loads of throttle bodies in stock.

How much would you want? bearing in mind reno specialist owe me the cost of sending them a gearbox back as they sent me the wrong one!
£35 iirc

 

[Andy_J]

think im going to buy a 1.6 16v do a bit of work to it, run the 1.2 into the ground then do the conversion.

I'll sell you mine..

 

[Martin_172]

after watching bmh.01's video ive kinda went off the idea, its not *that* much faster where its worth the money, going to fix the headgasket and rocker cover gasket on the 1.2 and hold of untill i can insure a 2.0 16v conversion

 

[Caramel]

depends on the car, its all about what you willing to do to it, i had the time to do my 1.6 and its now rather quick compared to other cars.

 

[bmh.01]

after watching bmh.01's video ive kinda went off the idea, its not *that* much faster where its worth the money, going to fix the headgasket and rocker cover gasket on the 1.2 and hold of untill i can insure a 2.0 16v conversion

I'd take a test drive in a 1.6 before you write it off, just to be sure. Just find one at a dealership in your area and go and give them the i'm looking to upgrade speach, get a test drive and see what you think. Won't cost you anything and will give you closure.

Although you were obviously expecting more a 1.6 is only every going to be a warm hatch in most cars. (VTS and 106 GTi excluded)

 

[Martin_172]

but how can you exclude the VTS and 106GTi they are still 1.6 16v's!

i was hoping to build a VTS eating monster with a 1.6 16v K4M which i still know is possible with enough effort and money, but i cant afford to mod it for now so would just be a standard 1.6 16v for a while.

good idea about the test drive will give it a go but doubt they'll give me one being only 17

 

[theduck]

I've never been asked to provide id for a test drive and have test driven some very ncie cars. If they ask how old you are just say your a bit older

 

[bmh.01]

but how can you exclude the VTS and 106GTi they are still 1.6 16v's!

I wasn't excluding them from being 1.6 16v's I was excluding them from the warm hatch bracket as they are definetly a step above.
What I was saying was look at the small hatches fitted with a 1.6 16v engine of any kind and pretty much all of them bar the VTS and 106 GTi fall into the warm hatch bracket.
At the end of the day I think your expecting too much from the (standard) K4M engine.

As for test drives I've had a million in all sorts of things around the 1.6 level when I was looking for what ended up being this car, never had any bother. Just look/sound interested and you'll be away.

 

[theduck]

I wasn't excluding them from being 1.6 16v's I was excluding them from the warm hatch bracket as they are definetly a step above.
What I was saying was look at the small hatches fitted with a 1.6 16v engine of any kind and pretty much all of them bar the VTS and 106 GTi fall into the warm hatch bracket.
At the end of the day I think your expecting too much from the (standard) K4M engine.

As for test drives I've had a million in all sorts of things around the 1.6 level when I was looking for what ended up being this car, never had any bother. Just look/sound interested and you'll be away.

works for vx220's aswell Tho i did go after work in my suit...

 

[Martin_172]

lol right cheers for all the help guys ill think about it after i get a test drive, if! lol

 

[antonis]

Hello,

I have a Dacia Duster 2010 with K4 1.6 105 HP with electronic throttle body.
I am facing an iddling issue for about a year and no garage seems to be able to fix it.
The only thing they tell is they guess I need to change ECU and throttle body.
I would like to ask if it would be possible to get rid of the stupid drive by wire and put an classic mechanical throttle body so
I would be of control.

What do I need to change except throttle boddy and accelerator pedal ?
ECU most probably?
are there other issues?
Would you advise such a change in terms of dependability?
Myu problem is that after 10-15 minutes when it gets at operating temp, it starts iddling on about 1800 rpm
and pops a DTC P0503 speed sensor.
They try to do throttle adaptation and it gives a message that adaptation failed, throttle limits cannot be set (I am translating from the greek messages)
Would it be possible that ECU is failing?
Other than that it works fine.
One thing I noticed, when this happens, I can hit the gas pedal quickly and then iddle returns to normal but when AC is on,
only way to make it return to <1000 rpm is to force it down by pushing brakes and leaving a bit the clutch to force it < 1300 rpm and then imediately it gets ok.
Any ideas what could be happening?
Renault dealer checked throttle body, wiring,various sensors and concluded it's an ecu issue.

 

[antonis]

an update:
I pulled out myself the throttle body.
There is nothing much to fail in there, it's very simple, no plasic gears or anything, only a magnet turning arround from a coil which seems brand new, only thing that could fail is the printed potentiometer which seem to be of the exact material of the gas pedal potentiometer and seems brand new as well.

So I don't think it's the throttle body, besides if it was it would never work ok as it does now for about 10-15 minutes.

Any idea would be mostly welcomed because it seems I would have to spend about 800 EUR and possibly I could find a workarround much cheaper.

Thank you in advance for your ideas/support.

Antonis

 

[bmh.01]

First step in these situations is to replace the pedal and the body. One of them usually fixes it.

Also check for loom damage I've seen that before as well.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[bloke]

First step in these situations is to replace the pedal and the body. One of them usually fixes it.

Very rare for a body or pedal to be faulty, normally bad connection on the plug and it's just the unplugging and plugging it back in that sorts it.

 

[antonis]

guys 3 renault garages inspected body and pedal and wiring. also each time I force rpm down instantly idles gets perfect.
so either something makes crazy the ecu or the ecu is faulty reading wrong input from somewhere.
I am deaply disapointed with most european cars after a few years and few milleage you need to pay for expensive parts. I had 3 korean cars in the family.
They are the definition of Dependability.
I am seriously thinking to sell the duster despite I like it very much.
But I dont want to spend unecessarily my money for stupid problems. I think I have to change ECU.