RS172 start, hesitation, slight idle problem

[frankv]

I have had my Clio RS172 for about a year now and a problem has developed that seems to present itself in three ways:
- when cold starting takes about 10secs, the revs slowly rise on the starter and then it fires and runs normally (when warm, or even cooled of after 8 hours or so, it starts instantly)
- when driving away cold, for the first few hundred meters the engine feels hesitant, and then at once it surges away, although I do not move my foot, and then ist hesitates again (this problem is gone after 500m or so and does not appear when warm)
- even when warm the revs come down a little slow, and sometimes stick at 1250 or so before slowly going down to 800 or so, it feels like it should come down faster and stick to 800 or so more

I have googled for this, and read about vacuum problems, but those all state wildly changing revs to 3500 or so, and I don't have that. What could cause the bad starting, hesitant driving in the first 500m and idle not really feeling solid?

 

[STEVE.M]

I have had my Clio RS172 for about a year now and a problem has developed that seems to present itself in three ways:
- when cold starting takes about 10secs, the revs slowly rise on the starter and then it fires and runs normally (when warm, or even cooled of after 8 hours or so, it starts instantly)
- when driving away cold, for the first few hundred meters the engine feels hesitant, and then at once it surges away, although I do not move my foot, and then ist hesitates again (this problem is gone after 500m or so and does not appear when warm)
- even when warm the revs come down a little slow, and sometimes stick at 1250 or so before slowly going down to 800 or so, it feels like it should come down faster and stick to 800 or so more

I have googled for this, and read about vacuum problems, but those all state wildly changing revs to 3500 or so, and I don't have that. What could cause the bad starting, hesitant driving in the first 500m and idle not really feeling solid?

Stating if it`s a PH1 or Ph2 would be a good place to start.

The mileage, and what engine maintenance has been performed in your ownership would go a long way to encourage constructive suggestions.

Or have you bought a cheap 16 year old at minimum car, in the expectation that it would just run & run?

 

[frankv]

Hi Steve, it is a phase 2. It has done about 150.000km and is in quite nice condition. I have had done a major service on it with new driveshatf, new brakes (discs and pads) in front, and have mounted new Bilstein adjustable suspension set all round. It has also just had a cambelt change.

It started hesitating a little just before the major service, but the garage said they could not find anything wrong with it, and said my foot might have been stuck on the carpet. I have a few other cars, and have bought the Clio because I've always wanted to try one. I love it, and plan to keep spending some money on it, but haven't found an expert yet that really knows his way around, so right now I'm stuck with the Renault dealership.

 

[STEVE.M]

Hi Steve, it is a phase 2. It has done about 150.000km and is in quite nice condition. I have had done a major service on it with new driveshatf, new brakes (discs and pads) in front, and have mounted new Bilstein adjustable suspension set all round. It has also just had a cambelt change.

It started hesitating a little just before the major service, but the garage said they could not find anything wrong with it, and said my foot might have been stuck on the carpet. I have a few other cars, and have bought the Clio because I've always wanted to try one. I love it, and plan to keep spending some money on it, but haven't found an expert yet that really knows his way around, so right now I'm stuck with the Renault dealership.

Slight hesitation/misfire could be attributed to 16 year old HT leads or spark plugs that are well past their use by date.

Whoever charged you for your cambelt change has bent your valves.

 

[JB21]

Mine used to play up when cold for the first 500m or so, reduced power then it would go back to normal. The issue was the pre cat lambda sensor.

You can switch the pre and post to see if it is this at no cost.

Also had vacume leaks which caused irratic idling were it would just rev up to 3-4k on idle.

 

[chris blue]

Mine did this when I first got it, although its a phase 1 and I messed around with the throttle body and cable
What cured my problem was a new ICV. Even cleaning the ICV didn't work

 

[frankv]

Thanks for giving some guiding what to look for.

@Steve I have driven it a few thousand km's after the cambelt change before this started happening, so I think the cambelt guy has done a nice job, no bent valves, but I'l remember the HT leads and plugs

@JB21 I have googled for lambda problems and found some similar stories, so will look into this, and have the dealer check the fault codes again

@Chris Does the phase 2 have an ICV, as the throttle body is different isn't it? I also looked into the TPS (throttle positioning sensor), but it is said that a first symptom of that should be engine fault warnings, and I don't have those, and it is only at starting and the first 500m.

 

[STEVE.M]

Mine did this when I first got it, although its a phase 1 and I messed around with the throttle body and cable
What cured my problem was a new ICV. Even cleaning the ICV didn't work

Which is exactly the reason my 1st question was is it Ph1 or 2, to eliminate this irrelevant information being posted.

 

[STEVE.M]

Thanks for giving some guiding what to look for.

@Steve I have driven it a few thousand km's after the cambelt change before this started happening, so I think the cambelt guy has done a nice job, no bent valves, but I'l remember the HT leads and plugs

@JB21 I have googled for lambda problems and found some similar stories, so will look into this, and have the dealer check the fault codes again

.

I may have been a bit harsh regarding the cam belt job.

The impression I got was the 10 second starting problem originated from there.

I appreciate you want the car right, and are prepared to spend a little to get it there.

Get the proper NGK spark plugs, £40 for 4.

 

[JB21]

I may have been a bit harsh regarding the cam belt job.

The impression I got was the 10 second starting problem originated from there

So irrelevant information!

 

[STEVE.M]

While the plugs are out, conduct a compression test.

The exact reading may vary from tester to tester, but the important thing is they all in the same field.

Genuine HT leads are £60, Bosch lambda`s £37 each.

https://www.cartech-one.co.uk/en/product/134826-bosch-lambda-sensor/v-14183

 

[frankv]

Ok thanks, I will get the plugs (they did not change them in the last service I had done), leads and lambda and change it, or have it changed. The costs are not that big.

It idles nice and smooth though when cold, no rough idling. Just the 10 second starting and the surging / hesitating when driving the first 500m.

 

[STEVE.M]

Replacing this would be a good idea also.

The one on mine was hard & brittle.

 

[chris blue]

Ah youre right- No ICV on the Phase 2

 

[frankv]

While the plugs are out, conduct a compression test.

The exact reading may vary from tester to tester, but the important thing is they all in the same field.

Genuine HT leads are £60, Bosch lambda`s £37 each.

https://www.cartech-one.co.uk/en/product/134826-bosch-lambda-sensor/v-14183

I ordered the plugs, and I found the HT leads, but your HT-lead package seems to say "made in France" whereas I have found BERU, NGK, Champion. And they all seem to have slightly different lenghts. Would you say the NGK are the OEM? As you said the NGK plugs are OEM. But NGK is Japanese and your bag says "made in France"...

 

[frankv]

Ok, I found here on the forum that people say that BERU is OEM, so I'll buy those then.

 

[STEVE.M]

Ok, I found here on the forum that people say that BERU is OEM, so I'll buy those then.

Even less than when I bought mine now.

https://www.renaultpartsdirect.co.uk/parts/popular-products/ignition-lead-set-clio-172-182/

 

[TRB182]

More than likely a pre cat lambda on the way out. Had exactly the same symptoms, swapped the lambdas over and the car is 100% again. A quick look at live data while the car is driving will help diagnose.

 

[frankv]

Ok thanks, I just received the two lambda sensors, ignition leads and plugs and hope to swap them this weekend. Although I don't know about the lambda's as I'll need my neighbours bridge for that probably.

 

[frankv]

I owe you an update! In the past months I first replaced the spark plugs and the ignition leads, both using OEM parts. There was no improvement when just started, but the engine ran better at high revs. Later I had the two lambda sondes replaced, by Bosch items. Then the engine again ran better, and it seemed like the surging was less. Now last week I really noticed the surging again.

I have been on a trip to Germany by the way, clocked a real 217km/u on the GPS, quite exciting to do in the Clio!

So it still is hesitant / surging when cold for the first 300metres. And the idle speed still first comes down to 1100rpm or so, and then drops, or not, to 800rpm or so in the next 10 seconds.

And I find the throttle not so responsive at some positions, it sometimes feels really flat. I have the feeling I can modulate my foot almost a centimeter for and aft before anything happens at about 120km/u (3500 rpm or so in 5th). When flooring it in Germany, things were much more responsive at the higher end of throttle usage.

As it is now, I can live with it. But I would really like a more lineair throttle response. Can there be mechanical play in the pedal itself, as this would cause a comparable response I think after some analysis. Or can there be a defect capacitor or something in an electronic circuit? I do not get any fault readings, so I assume the potmeters are ok and equal.

 

[frankv]

Ps., it started starting a little worse after the Germany run also. Not 1st thing, but only after 2 seconds or so.

 

[frankv]

Ps2., today I cleaned out the throttle body with brake cleaner. There was some dirt in there that is now gone. It runs a little smoother it seems, but the hesitation/surging in the first 200m is still there. When going off the throttle to idling it still holds it at 1100rpm, then goes down to 900rpm, then goes down to 650rpm or so. In steps. It is ok, but not as I expect it should behave.

 

[Optimista]

I have the same exact problem! Sport ph1, 76k miles. When cold it almost wont start without giving it some throttle, and first 500 meters, i hold the throttle in exact position and the car feels like it's laggy ( dont know how to explain it on english ). Like going foward and back bit by bit... New sparks, new lambdas.. When hot it starts up like a bomb. Goes great too. No idle problems, only lumpy idle

 

[bozothenutter]

amazed nobody has mentioned injectors yet(everybody always says injectors, lambda, coilpack, leads)
when it is running lumpy, unplug and replug them one by one, the one where it doesn't change is the culprit.

ps, is a 172 Ph2 subject to the new TDC sensor change?

 

[frankv]

Sport ph1, 76k miles

So yours has a mechanical throttle? Since it is a ph1? Mine has an electronic throttle, it is a phase 2. So we can rule out the throttle body / pedal as the problem then? SInce this happens both at versions with the mechanical and the electronic throttle.

 

[Optimista]

Yes, throttle by cable. I had error about tps, tried 3 different ones but problem is still the same. I maybe buy oem renault.