Setting up / adjusting asts

[Michaelfoz]

Looking for a bit advice on setting up my ats.

pretty much all the track days i will be doing are knockhill. (mostly right handers)
does this mean that i should have the left hand side set up harder than the right?
should the fronts be stiffer than the back?

also should they be set up a bit softer if it is raining / damp / greasy?

any advice appreciated.



michael

 

[MG cup]

Alright michael, the only time you would ever do that is on an oval car like the stock cars or if your really into your car setups then they can be adjusted to suit a certain track. Would handle like shite on the road though and in a straight line on track tbh but would go round corners well.

Proper way to setup up a car is corner weighted first I.e all corners adjusted to different heights so the load is evenly distributed between all four corners, more or less pointless if your changing passengers etc on track days.

Next is the geometry I.e camber first, caster if applicable then toe in/out last.

You then adjust your damping to suit conditions. Rule of thumb is hard for the dry and soft/er for the wet. You might even want to disconnect your front and back ARB's (if rear is fitted) in the wet but you shouldn't really need to unless your Michael Schumacher.

Clio's like having more weight over the front so some rake (higher at the back than the front) is beneficial and they also seem to like softer damping on the front compared to the back, it helps the car turn in with a more compliant front.

Changing any of the geometry be it height, camber, tracking, caster will mean you have to setup up everything again in theory except the rears where you can get away with adjusting the height on a track day to suit your needs.

You then get into bump steer, scrub angles etc etc. Having toe out on the front and back will make the car 'loose' and more willing to change direction but will need a good touch and will become more of a handful, especially on the limit and the wet.

 

[Michaelfoz]

ive had tracking and stuff done.
however when i change the driveshaft i'm going to get the corner weighting done
so you reckon adding a bit of toe in on the front should help it change direction quicker?
but it'll be a bit more of a handful?

 

[MG cup]

When the corner weighting is done your tracking and camber will all need set again just so you know and also if you remove the strut to hub bolts then same applies again.

You want parallel or toe 'out' on the front for a more race sort of setup, it will scrub tyres fairly quickly if your using it on the road with too much though. Its more the toe 'out' on the rear that will make it a handful. Imo and if its going to be used on the road then get it set neutral and go for parallel all round with about 2.5 front camber and throw a degree shim in the back if you want which will bring the rear to about 2.5 too. It all depends how far you want to go, a race setup and a car setup are so far apart that you have to choose which one you want to be closer too, the more you go towards race setup its road manners will suffer.

 

[Michaelfoz]

yeah i know that making any adjustments to the front requires the alignment to be done again

As i'm changing that driveshaft i feel that id be as well as getting corner weighting done. i'll get it set up without my weight being included that way a passenger can sort of compensate lol.

I also feel that having a dashbord is a good idea for driving on the road however i dont have one of those so i'll probably go for some toe out haha!!

how do you get toe out on the rear?
spacers behind the stub axle?

 

[MG cup]

Haha fair enough then, i never had a look around your car on sunday, no dash is keen for a daily.

Yeah shims behind the stub axles. Pure Motorsport sell loads of different sizes, they could probably advise on what's best too as they have a cup racer of their own, I haven't tested any toe out on the rear yet so I'm not sure what's best, just learned from what I have read and been told. Don't go too much though or it will be like racing a shopping trolley.

​I personally would get some toe out on the front first and then you can do the back later without having it setup and so you don't change too many things at once and your not sure what done what if you no what I mean.

 

[BIGASH]

the only time you would ever do that is on an oval car like the stock cars

Really? It's pretty common in the UK to set cars up for clockwise circuits obviously the main one that isn't is Rockingham but a top race team will be setting the cars up differently on each corner of the car with caster/camber different typically on the front. I know one of the suspension Guru's I was thinking of using last year sets a lot of customers cars up in this way to the point of differing spring rates too.

 

[BIGASH]

Also personally I would start with getting the rear beam checked to see how it stands and then shim to standard and gauge it from there. Depending on tyres, pressures, ride heights will vary the rear camber you would ideally run but start with standard and then you can gauge by tyre temp and wear across the tyre to see what needs doing lots of people just chuck 2 degrees shims/spacers on yet don't have a clue what its currently at and also won't need that much so all you are doing is reducing your contact patch and wearing and over hearing your tyres on one patch!

 

[MG cup]

Also personally I would start with getting the rear beam checked to see how it stands and then shim to standard and gauge it from there. Depending on tyres, pressures, ride heights will vary the rear camber you would ideally run but start with standard and then you can gauge by tyre temp and wear across the tyre to see what needs doing lots of people just chuck 2 degrees shims/spacers on yet don't have a clue what its currently at and also won't need that much so all you are doing is reducing your contact patch and wearing and over hearing your tyres on one patch!

This

When you get a front geo done on your car you will get a free printout for the rear too so work off that, means you don't have to get it done twice. Also some places charge more when you say you want a four wheel geo when in reality its only the front you want but will always be given a rear printout on a hunter machine.

 

[MG cup]

the only time you would ever do that is on an oval car like the stock cars or if your really into your car setups then they can be adjusted to suit a certain track.

When I said really into your setups I meant race teams etc, I would never do this on a car that is going to see any road driving. Not only would it annoy the s**t out of you but it would behave like s**t too haha. Your statement could have possibly just tripled the problem threads 'my cars wandering' 'pulling to the left' hahaha, keep that one quiet.

 

[Michaelfoz]

ive already got a printout of the rear. i had 4 wheel alignment done when i put the asts on
i just want to use them to their full potential lol

I have:

Front:
left- camber -> -1.08 castor -> 2.48 toe -> -0.07
right - camber -> -1.16 castor -> 2.25 toe -> -0.07

Rear:
left camber -> -1.42 toe -> 0.18
right camber -> -1.24 toe -> 0.14

tyre wear on the front all seemed to be on the inner half of the tyre
The other 3 tyres seemed to be wearing pretty evenly all the way across them.

Does this mean that i should reduce the camber angle on the front left?

then perhaps throw in a bit toe out either side. maybe 0.5 of a degree?
or is that quite a lot?

maybe i should try and get all of the camber sitting equal?

 

[MG cup]

Can you post a pic of your sheet? Im not sure of your toe on the front or back is out or in.

Have you adjusted ride height, replaced or removed anything suspension wise since this, sounds like your tracking is out to be scrubbing insides of tyres.

1 deg of camber is nothing, I had 3 at the weekend and the tyres wore equally across the length although they melted to bits. My car rolls a lot more being on standard shocks though.

Here is 2 setups from race Clio's first is a phase 1 with AST's

Your setup guy will know how to transfer degrees from MM's on av 15" wheel or Chip on here could too I would say.

Camber front 3.4
Camber rear 2.5
Front toe 2mm out
Rear toe 1mm out (each side)

This is mk2 cup racer set up for Zandvoort Circuit, you can see he has altered camber to suit certain corners, if you want some help with that its way above my head lol. Using slicks too which will make the car roll some more in theory due to extra grip but is counteracted by the solid suspension they run hence a little bit more camber needed than the ph1, if the ph1 ran slicks it would need about 5-5.5 degrees I would say.

lf camber -3.5
rf camber -4.2
front toe out, 10 minutes total.


lr camber -2.7
rr camber -2.2
rear toe parallel.

 

[Michaelfoz]

i dont think i'll need 3 degrees of camber with asts?
the car was fairly solid through the corners.
I think i'll get 2 degrees put on the front
With a smidge of toe out

Then i'll buy some 1 degree camber shims for the rear and see how i get on

I'm not putting toe out on the rear as thatll be a bit embarrasing haha

 

[MG cup]

Aye should be fine, maybe a bit more camber on the front though. If you really do want it set up nice then get a temperature gauge if you can for your next day and it will be the judge if the setup is right for you and the car.

 

[Fraser.J.]

Buy KWs and just drive faster, then you might keep up

 

[Michaelfoz]

what would i measure with the temperature gauge?
just tyre pressures?

 

[MG cup]

what would i measure with the temperature gauge?
just tyre pressures?

The temperature across the tyres tread at 3 points usually, outside, middle, inside. If you can get the temperature even (+or- 10 degrees) across the tyres width then you will be making the most of the tyre. Knowing exactly what to do for that is the hard bit, you have to go out testing what setup you choose and go from there as it depends how you drive the car/track and conditions to what will work.

It can get very expensive, cheapest way to do it is learn how to string your car for tracking and buy a camber guage then fiddle with it on a trackday untill you get that sweet spot. You can then get the geo checked after to see what the settings are for certain and be sure the adjustments your making are what you think they are. This way you can then set it up again after work/adjustments etc with some certainty. That's the way I will be doing it anyway, happy to be corrected in a better cheaper way.

Spending £100-£150 for a good camber guage and parts for the string method then you could set up any car easily for free, maybe even make some beer tokens.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Mine Field.

 

[MG cup]

Black magic iirc

 

[Fraser.J.]

Track car, not race car, spend money on trackdays, petrol and tyres. Basic camber/toe set up and go. Your not chasing seconds.

 

[Adam G]

Track car, not race car, spend money on trackdays, petrol and tyres. Basic camber/toe set up and go. Your not chasing seconds.

Amen to that.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Track car, not race car, spend money on trackdays, petrol and tyres. Basic camber/toe set up and go. Your not chasing seconds.

If you weren't Scottish, I'd come up and kiss you.

 

[MG cup]

Track car, not race car, spend money on trackdays, petrol and tyres. Basic camber/toe set up and go. Your not chasing seconds.

True that but some people want more from their car.

​ps was you cutting the grass for KH again last night?

 

[Fraser.J.]

No just a hat rack

I agree Morgan, but if your looking to get the best you can, you should be away buying books, doing research and learning everything to do with set up/geometry. Not asking how do I set my car up.

Needle-haystack.

Especially when it's all about personal preference.

Temp gauge, pressure gauge - see how you get on and see if you need to adjust anything.

I'm happy with my set up, seem to be keeping even wear and pressures about 30 degrees.

And yes, kept it on the track

 

[MG cup]

Aye even my limited knowledge of setups is too much to pass on through a forum.

Happy days, Knockhill would start paying you soon for keeping the grass trimmed

Gutted I missed it, did the wether hold off?

 

[Fraser.J.]

Haha some free track time and ill drive where ever they want haha!

Weather was amazing mate, sunny all night! I was walking about in a t-shirt, did get some funny looks for that though haha!

 

[Michaelfoz]

im not chasing seconds. i just want to maintain my gap that i currently have over fraser and john ;;

 

[Fraser.J.]

im not chasing seconds. i just want to maintain my gap that i currently have over fraser and john ;;

The gap you made in the gravel when you couldn't hold me off? Or the gap that increased when you couldn't catch me?

Stop being in the CS massive of building epic cars and not using them. And waste your money on a trackday. You have the most track ready car out of all of us and have done the least trackdays.

Want to go faster and beat me/John. Then go practice

 

[Djw John]

im not chasing seconds. i just want to maintain my gap that i currently have behind fraser and john ;;

​Fixed that for you.

 

[Djw John]

Oh and I plan to make my car go much faster this year.








​Im going to get some tuition.

 

[Fraser.J.]

Oh and I plan to make my car go much faster this year.








​Im going to get some tuition.

Same! Gona do a track Scotland day and book with the guy that does it with them!

 

[Michaelfoz]

my car only became the most track ready over the winter (when the track season was over)
Its also my daily therefore im not going to ram in 5 track days every month

 

[Michaelfoz]

ps

stu has a charged and a set of wilwoods = more track prepped

 

[Fraser.J.]

my car only became the most track ready over the winter (when the track season was over)
Its also my daily therefore im not going to ram in 5 track days every month

Why? Cars reliable. Set up for it. You bin it you can cycle to work and break it and replace with another till u buy a daily.

 

[Michaelfoz]

dumbest sentence ever

 

[Fraser.J.]

dumbest sentence ever

Ironic.