Should I carry on with the Clio?

[Cup_Phil]

I've had my 172 cup for about 18months now - bought it as a replacement for my 106 gti (I had 106's for 8 years before the Clio)

I liked it as a daily drive - had leather recaro's and leather rear seats and it was a good little car
Did the 'ring in it and did a mid 9minute lap and again had a brilliant time

But in the last 9 months I've decided to turn it into a track car

I've got a daily runaround and I've completely stripped the clio
All the seat brackets cut off - battery relocated
Anything that wasn't needed has been cut off - I reckon around 60kg lost

Fitted it with Bilstein B14's, 2118's uprated mounts/bushes etc.. negative camber
Solid top mounts and strut brace (cup racer setup)
Stealth exhaust with decat, remap
It's running around 185bhp

But.... I've been on a few track days with it and I hate it

It turns in well and I can get the back end out with a bit of a play but I can't get out of corners without it spinning the inside wheel up
On track people in 120bhp cars are pulling away from me because the clio just spins the inner wheel up and understeers

My next steps were going to be a full safety devices cage, pro geometry setup, road legal slicks etc... but I'm just sat with the money in my bank and don't feel like spending it because of the handling problems

I'm now wondering about buying a LSD for it to try to keep the wheel spinning under control - but that's £1300 and then another grand on cage and £500 on tyres... for that money I could sell the clio and get an Evo 6

I really don't know if it's worth continuing with it as a track car

Does anyone else have any problems with understeer on stripped out cups?

I'm kinda wishing I'd got a regular 172 with traction control

 

[DanFreemanPhoto]

I've done a very similar thing to my car, I have no issues at all with the inside wheel spinning. I hate to say this, and I'm not suggesting I'm the greatest driver ever, but have you thought it might be your driving technique....and not the car?

You don't need traction control, I turn it off as soon as I get on track.

Maybe get your suspension set up properly? (if you didn't initially)

All in all, if 120bhp cars are pulling away from you, I would seriously thing it's your driving letting you down, not the car.

 

[Russ_16v]

what tyres are you running mate?

I have to say you shouldnt be having spinning up issues - even on standard shocks/Prolines and near 200 bhp i only ever got wheel spin if i was being very heavy handed - and slower


have you had it properly set up? I mean this with the grestest of respect as i do not know yoyr driving style/ability but maybe you are being a little heavy handed and need to be a little smoother?

 

[Cup_Phil]

Dan - yeah I don't think I'm the greatest driver in the world and in the 106 it was a case of point it out the corner and nail it, so i've had to learn to be a bit less lead-footed with the clio - but honestly I'm talking half throttle and the inside wheel starts spinning
I feel really frustrated because in a straight line it's quick but I can't get any of that speed down on track at all

The tyres are s**t - uniroyal rainsports. But then i've been on track today in my mates MX5 on the same rainsports and his gripped so much I've got neck ache from being out for an hour LOL

I had the tracking all setup before the coilovers were fitted but not since - I guess the first thing I should do is get the geometry properly setup, I just didn't think it would make that much difference

 

[Revels]

But.... I've been on a few track days with it and I hate it

Don't make me crack out the multi-quote again.

I think you're taking things too seriously. Just use to have some fun with.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Dan - I can't mate. It pisses me off to much.

For every time it makes me smile (such as brands hatch) there are 5 occasions where I'm shouting at it while it spins the wheels
It annoys me because I think if it put the power down it would be a fantastic track car - but I don't want to throw another £3k at parts at it and still feel this dissapointed

I tell you what else annoys me too - it was better on track with the full leather interior and spare wheel in it lol

 

[Revels]

I think you should try some tuition. Then see how you feel. That will be cheap in the grand scheme of things. Certainly compared to what you're intending to buy.

It's a FWD hot hatch. Unless it's wet or you're really over cooking it, you shouldn't be struggling to get power down. They're not that quick.

 

[DanFreemanPhoto]

I've never seen any issues of any Clio I've been a passenger in on track have issues. You car either has a problem, or you have lead feet.

 

[Cup_Phil]

There's a lad in Gainsborough (30mins away) who used to be a clio cup driver back when they used 172's. He now does driver tuition and suspension setups

I think maybe I'll go see him and get him to set the geometry up and take me for some tuition at Blyton - see how I get on before I spend any more money on it

 

[Russ_16v]

Dan - yeah I don't think I'm the greatest driver in the world and in the 106 it was a case of point it out the corner and nail it, so i've had to learn to be a bit less lead-footed with the clio - but honestly I'm talking half throttle and the inside wheel starts spinning
I feel really frustrated because in a straight line it's quick but I can't get any of that speed down on track at all

Spinning at half throttle - there is something definately wrong mate

The tyres are s**t - uniroyal rainsports. But then i've been on track today in my mates MX5 on the same rainsports and his gripped so much I've got neck ache from being out for an hour LOL

Try better tyres - they work well on the mx i expect due to it's better weight distribution, and rwd - 2 wheels steering and 2 wheels driving - remember the Clio is front heavy with a very light rear end - try better tyres.

I had the tracking all setup before the coilovers were fitted but not since - I guess the first thing I should do is get the geometry properly setup, I just didn't think it would make that much difference

The coilovers would have altereed things massively - setup is everything mate, take it somewhere who can set the ride height and toe correctly and it will be a completely different machine.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Spinning at half throttle - there is something definately wrong mate

The coilovers would have altereed things massively - setup is everything mate, take it somewhere who can set the right height and toe correctly and it will be a completely different machine.

Right I'll get her booked in next week for a full geometry setup - then I'll get a day at Blyton booked and see how it goes

It's probably just my own stupidity - I never think tracking being a bit out can make that much of a difference but if you guys don't have any problems at all it's obviously something not right on my car. And I'll feel a complete t**t if I spend £1300 on a diff to fix something that a £150 geometry setup could fix lol

 

[Russ_16v]

oh and remember, you have altered the car massively from its original design - it was more fun when standard as thats what it was designed to be - when you want to go faster you teach yourself - once the car has become the limit you need to remember everything you change will make a difference to how the car reacts - and thus the setup must be made with the mods - standard settings wont be good at all

 

[skiddusmarkus]

Dan - yeah I don't think I'm the greatest driver in the world and in the 106 it was a case of point it out the corner and nail it, so i've had to learn to be a bit less lead-footed with the clio - but honestly I'm talking half throttle and the inside wheel starts spinning
I feel really frustrated because in a straight line it's quick but I can't get any of that speed down on track at all

The tyres are s**t - uniroyal rainsports. But then i've been on track today in my mates MX5 on the same rainsports and his gripped so much I've got neck ache from being out for an hour LOL

I had the tracking all setup before the coilovers were fitted but not since - I guess the first thing I should do is get the geometry properly setup, I just didn't think it would make that much difference

What do yo uexpect to happen if the suspension isn't set up?I'm not trying to be rude but there's more to coilovers than just banging them on and expecting the car to handle.
Ask others what camber/castor and toe they were running front and rear and look into getting the car corner weighted before buying any new parts.

 

[skiddusmarkus]

Just to add, after having new suspension(konis) fitted at home, just driving to have them tracked up made a massive bead of rubber across the tyres it was out so much.Also, when I had coilovers fitted it handled crap until set up properly.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Was it setup before the coilovers?

Mine was bang on before the coilovers and I didn't think just lowering it another 10mm would have made that much difference

 

[sam55]

Maybe you need to soften the front end up? My limited racing knowledge with RWD cars included softening up the rear to improve traction, might be similar on FWD cars, correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[Steven103]

Common sense

You're not "just" lowering it by 10mm though, are you? Setup is essentially done by doing up bolts/nuts in very specific positions and millimeters/a-few-degrees make a big difference. It doesn't matter how careful you are when you fit a new set of coilovers, you're never ever going to get everything back in the exact same position that it came off. Even if you did it'd still be all wrong because the coilovers will no doubt have different dimensions to the standard shocks & springs.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Sounds to me there is not enough weight on the front as well as your driving.You NEED to get it set up correctly before you do anything,as said before,a couple of mill here and there makes all the difference,took us about a year to get the race car set up to how we like it.
There's along way to go before you start needing diff's etc.

 

[Cup_Phil]

There's not much I can do with the billies

Normally I'd stiffen the rear up and soften the front - but they aren't damping adjustable
I'm kinda wishing I'd just got KW V2's now instead of spending £900 on the bilsteins

Oh well

 

[Tony Hunter]

Still needs corner weighting,I wasn't even on about setting dampers.

 

[Fred@BTM]

There's not much I can do with the billies

Normally I'd stiffen the rear up and soften the front - but they aren't damping adjustable
I'm kinda wishing I'd just got KW V2's now instead of spending £900 on the bilsteins

Oh well

wrong, corner weighting is one of the most beneficial thing you can do, you DO NOT need damping adjustable shocks

the other most important thing people overlook is tyres and pressures - the most important bit, what pressures do you run? (HOT)

example, google yozzasport spa, that's a 240bhp clio with no diff, that doesn't spin its wheels out of corners (well in the wet it would've helped LOL!)

 

[Cup_Phil]

OMG that thing flys

Right consider myself told - gonna book it in for corner weighting next week

Tyre pressures I'm not sure - 24 at front and 28 at the back but that was cold, I didn't check them when warm

 

[Tony Hunter]

Why do people mess with things???

 

[Cup_Phil]

What do you mean?

 

[Tony Hunter]

I liked it as a daily drive - had leather recaro's and leather rear seats and it was a good little car
Did the 'ring in it and did a mid 9minute lap and again had a brilliant time



Fitted it with Bilstein B14's, 2118's uprated mounts/bushes etc.. negative camber
Solid top mounts and strut brace (cup racer setup)
Stealth exhaust with decat, remap
It's running around 185bhp

But.... I've been on a few track days with it and I hate it

This

 

[Cup_Phil]

Because I don't want it as a daily drive anymore - I have a 306 as my daily drive - and I want to enter a series with it next year

I'm hardly gonna be competitive with a car full of leather interior and sound system am I?

 

[Russ_16v]

I think what Tony is getting at is the car was great fun when standard, but when modified without the correct insight into things like setup it can ruin a car rather than make it better.

Not your fault mate, just some steps that you need to take to get the best out of the changes you have made, though it shows how easily cars can be made worse rather than better without the experience of knowing how to use the modifications that have been fitted.

 

[BrianB]

out of interest how do they corner weight a car?

 

[Cup_Phil]

Yes it fully does - it's quicker in a straight line but £1300 in suspension parts and it handles like poo lol

It's all a learning curve - I wasn't expecting to make a track car overnight I just didn't want to carry on down the wrong path

 

[Russ_16v]

Yes it fully does - it's quicker in a straight line but £1300 in suspension parts and it handles like poo lol

It's all a learning curve - I wasn't expecting to make a track car overnight I just didn't want to carry on down the wrong path

So true mate, iv made plenty of the same lol.

Once set up (make sure you take it somewhere with experience i can recommend Fred as iv used him) I will lay a very big bet it will be a completely different car

 

[Tony Hunter]

Where abouts did you mention entering a series with it?.If your thinknig about doing that,then forget about doing anything until you have got it all built,then start getting it done after that.As everything you add in or take out makes a difference.

 

[Fred@BTM]

out of interest how do they corner weight a car?

to keep things simple by adjusting the platforms on each corner you can "move" weight about to where you want it

example

before set up (in KG)

FL 370 FR 430

RL 160 RR 190

after setup

FL 400 FR 410

RL 180 RR 180



just a rough example to give you an idea of what's going on

 

[Tony Hunter]

Ooooo hello,and it did make a BIG difference didn't it Fred. Thanks.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i dunno LOL, your idea of feedback is "yeah, its ok" - typical racing driver

all i got told was "it goes sideways a bit too much"

 

[Tony Hunter]

There you go then,perfect.

 

[Russ_16v]

Will be needing your setup again on this next ph1 Fred

 

[Cup_Phil]

Crikey - that makes a hell of a difference to the weight distribution

Tony - sorry I thought I had. I'm looking at either sprinting with it next year or entering the MSV track day trophy
It will still be a weekend car though so I'm hoping to keep it road legal - just for 'ring trips and stuff

I guess what I should do then is concentrate on getting the cage fitted this month and bin the recaros for some fixed buckets etc... as that will all affect the weight and then go get it corner weighted and geometry setup

 

[Gaz_]

what £££ are we talking for corner weighting?? is it really beneficial on a road car?

 

[Tony Hunter]

Crikey - that makes a hell of a difference to the weight distribution

Tony - sorry I thought I had. I'm looking at either sprinting with it next year or entering the MSV track day trophy
It will still be a weekend car though so I'm hoping to keep it road legal - just for 'ring trips and stuff

I guess what I should do then is concentrate on getting the cage fitted this month and bin the recaros for some fixed buckets etc... as that will all affect the weight and then go get it corner weighted and geometry setup

Yes get everything sorted first,then get it done.
We simulated half our race fuel as well to balance out the different factors between the start of the race and the end.

 

[Fred@BTM]

what £££ are we talking for corner weighting?? is it really beneficial on a road car?

depends on time really, on average "about" £100-£150

a stock road clio is surprising unbalanced (RHD is the problem) but a road user won't really benefit from it