Spacer and camber shim help/advice...

[Martin.]

Right so I got a proper GEO setup done on the car on Monday.

It's given me some values to work with and hopefully work out what spacers and shims to buy.

But I'm basically trying to work out what spacers will make the wheels potentially rub the arches and what degree shims to buy for the rears.

So first question. (Track only car, road legal but very few road miles) (AST coilvoers 15" wheels 195 R888 Tyres)

1) What camber works well on the rear, if at all? I don't have a clue!

2) If I want spacers for the rear, I'm assuming I need to increase the camber too to stop rubbing?

3) I've currently got -2.5 camber at the front. Can't go anymore currently as the tyre is extremely close to contact with the thread winder on the coilovers. So if I want -3 degrees I'm going to have to get the spacer sorted first but don't know what to go for.

I was thinking something like 10-15mm each side on the front. That might allow me to reach -3 camber too.

I'm only thinking about 5-10mm or so at the rear. But a shim with camber combined, to help prevent any rubbing.]

So yeah, really don't know what works well or what I need to go for. Also I might need slightly different each side to counteract the small differences that are present already?

I don't want any rubbing though.

So if you can offer any suggestions or have any experience with different options please fire away.

 

[NorthloopCup]

3 degrees negative camber works well up front and 2.5 degrees rear works well too. I f**king hate spacers with a passion though. To me they're the anti christ. If you go too wide they ruin the scrub geometry on the front end and upsets the handling as you have to dial out the change in scrub geo by changing to toe in. If you want spacers to gain clearance, no more than 10mm but preferably 5mm as it keeps everything half sensible.

Scrubbing - you'll get it up front if your low, too wide, not stiff enough, still have the original bumper brackets...........see where this is going? Lol!

Geo setups are very much a personal preference thing though Martin. What might feel bang on for me, may well feel awful to you. How does the car feel to drive? What does it do well? What's it not doing quite so well? Damper settings can dial out a lot of uncertainty as well.

 

[Martin.]

3 degrees negative camber works well up front and 2.5 degrees rear works well too. I f**king hate spacers with a passion though. To me they're the anti christ. If you go too wide they ruin the scrub geometry on the front end and upsets the handling as you have to dial out the change in scrub geo by changing to toe in. If you want spacers to gain clearance, no more than 10mm but preferably 5mm as it keeps everything half sensible.

Scrubbing - you'll get it up front if your low, too wide, not stiff enough, still have the original bumper brackets...........see where this is going? Lol!

Geo setups are very much a personal preference thing though Martin. What might feel bang on for me, may well feel awful to you. How does the car feel to drive? What does it do well? What's it not doing quite so well? Damper settings can dial out a lot of uncertainty as well.

Thanks for the reply buddy. I know exactly what you mean about different setups working for different people. I'm just trying to look at the different variations.

I'm aiming for -3 up front or there about. But for this I'll need a spacer because of the closeness between inside tyre and shock currently. I might try Kelv's 5mm spacers out and see how that makes a difference then.

I didn't expect to hear about that much camber on the rear though I guess I was thinking about 1.5 for some reason..

Do you not run spacers on yours then? for some reason I thought I remembered reading you were really wide.

I had a bit of scrubbing this week at Brands, but think that may have only been the arch liner upon a brief look. Will have a proper look this weekend and see what I can remove. I'm not even 'that' low. Good inch at least of arch gap at a guess.

Doing Brands again next week, this time a full day, so will have a lot more time to try and think more about what feels good and bad with the setup.

I text you last week with a picture by the way, did you not get it?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Thanks for the reply buddy. I know exactly what you mean about different setups working for different people. I'm just trying to look at the different variations.

I'm aiming for -3 up front or there about. But for this I'll need a spacer because of the closeness between inside tyre and shock currently. I might try Kelv's 5mm spacers out and see how that makes a difference then.

I didn't expect to hear about that much camber on the rear though I guess I was thinking about 1.5 for some reason..

Do you not run spacers on yours then? for some reason I thought I remembered reading you were really wide.

I had a bit of scrubbing this week at Brands, but think that may have only been the arch liner upon a brief look. Will have a proper look this weekend and see what I can remove. I'm not even 'that' low. Good inch at least of arch gap at a guess.

Doing Brands again next week, this time a full day, so will have a lot more time to try and think more about what feels good and bad with the setup.

I text you last week with a picture by the way, did you not get it?

I think James runs 5 or 10mm spacers up front with et37 wheels 7j 15's, and as you've experienced it's serving him very well! What's the offset on your track wheels?

No mate I don't run any spacers. The reason my car is so wide is because of the additional track width on the hubs. I'm 5mm per wheel wider than the hubs we did in the group buy. Mine were the experimental/development set. I don't run any spacers at the rear either as my 15's catch the arches. They're et35 but I think if I rolled the arch lips I'd get more clearance.

No mate I didn't receive your picture, but I was away in the back of beyond with no 3G so iMessage wasn't working properly. Send it again if you like.

 

[Martin.]

I think James runs 5 or 10mm spacers up front with et37 wheels 7j 15's, and as you've experienced it's serving him very well! What's the offset on your track wheels?

No mate I don't run any spacers. The reason my car is so wide is because of the additional track width on the hubs. I'm 5mm per wheel wider than the hubs we did in the group buy. Mine were the experimental/development set. I don't run any spacers at the rear either as my 15's catch the arches. They're et35 but I think if I rolled the arch lips I'd get more clearance.

No mate I didn't receive your picture, but I was away in the back of beyond with no 3G so iMessage wasn't working properly. Send it again if you like.

It was only a photo of my wishbone angle, i'll send again now.

James' setup feels amazing! haha.

From memory I think my wheels are et43 but I'm not entirely sure. They're OZ F1s...

 

[NorthloopCup]

It was only a photo of my wishbone angle, i'll send again now.

James' setup feels amazing! haha.

From memory I think my wheels are et43 but I'm not entirely sure. They're OZ F1s...

There's the reason your so close then if they're et43. You'll be fine with a 10mm spacer.

 

[sonny172cup]

Have you checked to see how much neg camber can be achieved from the AST's? I had to file mu slotted holes to get into the 3s. iirc they maxed out at -2.9, saying that you should be fine on anything from -2.3 to -2.9 up front anyway.

 

[Martin.]

Have you checked to see how much neg camber can be achieved from the AST's? I had to file mu slotted holes to get into the 3s. iirc they maxed out at -2.9, saying that you should be fine on anything from -2.3 to -2.9 up front anyway.

Do you know what, I haven't actually. But you know how bad AST are with getting a response. Still not got my longer bolts LOL you were right.

I probably don't need any more camber to be honest, but thought just a little bit more would be good to work from. As you say -2.7 to -2.9 would be fine.

 

[sonny172cup]

How did the car get on at Brands?

In regards to rear camber, using an extra -1 camber shim in there would work well, you dont want to go to much on the rears.

 

[Martin.]

How did the car get on at Brands?

In regards to rear camber, using an extra -1 camber shim in there would work well, you dont want to go to much on the rears.

It felt great at Brands mate. Didn't get that much time to really think about it all though, was quite rushed and only got two sessions :-(

What does camber on the rear do for the cars handling? More oversteer?

Just sent you a whatsapp too

 

[Ph1 Tom]

I'd go an extra degree on the OSR and 30 minutes on the NSR; correct the toe too you might need two shims used together one for the toe and one for the camber.

You'll be ok with 10mm hub spacers on the back along with the shims and then as Mark said 10mm will be fine on the front too.

 

[Martin.]

I'd go an extra degree on the OSR and 30 minutes on the NSR; correct the toe too you might need two shims used together one for the toe and one for the camber.

You'll be ok with 10mm hub spacers on the back along with the shims and then as Mark said 10mm will be fine on the front too.

What would that give me in numbers compared to what I have now please I don't know how to read degrees/minutes properly lol.

Company that did my setup said they can machine shims to do camber and toe in one.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

What would that give me in numbers compared to what I have now please I don't know how to read degrees/minutes properly lol.

Company that did my setup said they can machine shims to do camber and toe in one.

2.3 degrees each side, or thereabouts.

How much would that be vs off the shelf stuff?

 

[Martin.]

2.3 degrees each side, or thereabouts.

How much would that be vs off the shelf stuff?

Oh yes of course, I was getting confused with minutes.

I don't know yet, I've asked them that exact question

So I'll aim for about -2 to -2.5 degrees camber on the rears. Will it be a problem if my fronts can't actually go any more than this, and I have the same camber front and rear?

 

[NorthloopCup]

So I'll aim for about -2 to -2.5 degrees camber on the rears. Will it be a problem if my fronts can't actually go any more than this, and I have the same camber front and rear?

No mate it will be fine. You'll find that you can add more camber with the roll centre hubs fitted as they push the hub out by 5mm at the bottom.

 

[barnesautos]

No mate it will be fine. You'll find that you can add more camber with the roll centre hubs fitted as they push the hub out by 5mm at the bottom.

Once I get my Roll centre Hubs in GB3 I'll be having my Geo set-up . I'll be doing it myself at work on a hunter geo machine.
My question is , I recently for some 10mm spacers for the back , as I'm running -1deg shims at rear already , coupled with the 10mm spacer will this be enough to achieve the -2.5deg or will I need an additional shim ?
And also what toe is good at rear for track use ?
Will I need a further shim on top of the one I have already .

 

[NorthloopCup]

Once I get my Roll centre Hubs in GB3 I'll be having my Geo set-up . I'll be doing it myself at work on a hunter geo machine.
My question is , I recently for some 10mm spacers for the back , as I'm running -1deg shims at rear already , coupled with the 10mm spacer will this be enough to achieve the -2.5deg or will I need an additional shim ?
And also what toe is good at rear for track use ?
Will I need a further shim on top of the one I have already .

You need to know what the rear geo is before you can say really mate. I'd say you'll not be far off tbh, but it all depends on how straight you're rear beam is.
I'd leave the rear toe as toe in by 1-1.5mm if I were you. If you run it parallel or toe out you'll end up with quite a loose rear end.

 

[barnesautos]

You need to know what the rear geo is before you can say really mate. I'd say you'll not be far off tbh, but it all depends on how straight you're rear beam is.
I'd leave the rear toe as toe in by 1-1.5mm if I were you. If you run it parallel or toe out you'll end up with quite a loose rear end.

Ok so I'll Geo it before hand and see what figures I get - is rear tow standard toe in 1 - 1.5mm then ?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Ok so I'll Geo it before hand and see what figures I get - is rear tow standard toe in 1 - 1.5mm then ?

It all depends on how straight your beam is tbh. There's a huge tolerance range on the official figures to allow for any discrepancies.

 

[barnesautos]

It all depends on how straight your beam is tbh. There's a huge tolerance range on the official figures to allow for any discrepancies.

Ok well I'll leave it at that for now (discussion) and hope my beam is straight .

 

[NorthloopCup]

Ok well I'll leave it at that for now (discussion) and hope my beam is straight .

Drop me a pm or give me a mention when you've got your geo results mate.

 

[Martin.]

You need to know what the rear geo is before you can say really mate. I'd say you'll not be far off tbh, but it all depends on how straight you're rear beam is.
I'd leave the rear toe as toe in by 1-1.5mm if I were you. If you run it parallel or toe out you'll end up with quite a loose rear end.

I didn't know the rear was toe in as standard. Isn't mine toe out? From the results above? It's a positive number just like the tiny bit on the front.

Really can't get my head around how parallel would make the rear loose... Isn't mine pretty parallel now?

 

[NorthloopCup]

I didn't know the rear was toe in as standard. Isn't mine toe out? From the results above? It's a positive number just like the tiny bit on the front.

Really can't get my head around how parallel would make the rear loose... Isn't mine pretty parallel now?

I'm on the pop mate so I'll reply to this tomorrow. Lol!

 

[NorthloopCup]

I didn't know the rear was toe in as standard. Isn't mine toe out? From the results above? It's a positive number just like the tiny bit on the front.

Really can't get my head around how parallel would make the rear loose... Isn't mine pretty parallel now?

Can you iMessage me a pic of your geo sheet? Can't see it clear enough on here. If the numbers positive it's usually toe in. Negative means toe out. If you've got 54minutes of toe in on the rear, you've got a lot of toe in as well! You ideally want toe out up front to.

 

[Martin.]

I'll text you. x

 

[Martin.]

Massive thanks to Mark. Who has taken time to explain it all to me properly. I now feel that I have a much better understanding of it all and have some settings which I'm going to aim for.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Massive thanks to Mark. Who has taken time to explain it all to me properly. I now feel that I have a much better understanding of it all and have some settings which I'm going to aim for.

Your welcome mate.

 

[bozothenutter]

another question on spacers for he rear.
If you correct only one side of the car (camber or toe) do you need to space out the other (uncorrected) side?

 

[NorthloopCup]

another question on spacers for he rear.
If you correct only one side of the car (camber or toe) do you need to space out the other (uncorrected) side?

Depends on what spacers your using mate. If it's the shims then no as they're only going to add say 1-1.5mm track width, but if it's the spacers with an angle on then yes. You'd need 2 sets of the same spacer. One set with camber and one set without.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

It's much easier having separate spacers and shims.