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throttle body kit(s)
- Thread starter savvy
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therein lies the problem, "as far as you can see"... always a good indicator of knowing sweet f-all. My Williams has receipts for almost 15k (some of which I gave to Ben to do work... so I have experience of him there), I also spent considerable time when Mehdi had the white ITB'd Clio done as we went on at least 4 seperate occasions to pick it up being told it was finished. With him being a close mate of mine when he gets updates I naturally got them too seeing as we share an interest in tuned Clio's. I wont discuss what I spend on this one, but suffice to say it's faster than when I bought it... by some margin now. So unfortunately, while I cant go and tune a car myself (which I have no interest in doing) I have seen a hell of a lot of tuned Clio's in various states, both Mk1 and Mk2 and am informed enough to say what I think does and doesn't work
You may spend thousands on tuning but your not doing the work are you? So how does merely paying for the full kit and having it installed increase ones knowledge pray tell? I'd be dropping the car off with whoever was doing the work and my ass would be on a train back to manchester until it's done... yet through some amazing twist in what we call reality this would somehow make me more knowledgable on the subject? Tell you what, you give me £1000 and I'll give you some more IQ, I'll PM you my account number :clown:
Sadly it's not quite how it works, I take an interest in something and have had Clio's for a while now, so I know based on the current market selection of mods what does and doesn't work. In relation to this new kit I have no idea, hence the reason I asked and I'm sure the other 12'000 view's were also keen in knowing after 8 months of speculation and hype.
only accurate ones I can recommend round the NW I have used are RE Performance (but tbh I dont like them touching my car) and Pro Sport (Subaru specialist).
PM me if you want ones that wont give you anything other than Max Power figures (yes, like my 240bhp reading lol)
LOL. I thought we were going to cut the bullshit.
I am happy in the fact that I own a nice house and have plenty of disposable income, who cares about IQ? How old are you? I bet you still live with your mum
or at best rent a shitty 1 bed flat, lol.
you made reference to buying mods making you automatically knowledgable, I'm telling you how stupid that sounds.
if you want to get into a who's got the bigger c**k it might be time for a new thread Mark, I dont want to get personal on this one, as A) i'll win, as lets face it, more wit falls out of my arse when I take a s**t than you possess in your body and B) I'll probably be singled out as being the trouble causer when you cry off somewhere.
If it makes you happy I live in a 1 bedroom flat in Moss Side with my mum, am an only child and stack shelfs in a newsagents... part time whilst collecting dole and somehow feeding a crack addiction
How much have you delved into the engine mapping side of things? I write control system software for a living mostly factory automation but its not disimilar to engine mapping. You use the inputs from sensors/devices to control outputs via a software program.
I remember spending many a Sunday afternoon in a cold garage helping my dad fix his old bangers. It kind of put me off the whole grease monkey side of cars. At the end of the day I can afford to pay someone else to do that for me.
Some simple modifications to the fuelling and spark maps sorted them out. When I spoke to Andy a few months ago he was still trying to fob me off with the OMEX hardware fault. Apparently these problems were nothing to do with the mapping.
For the idle problem he wanted to fit an air bypass valve. I had a go at it myself one Sunday morning. The OMEX adds or takes away advance to acheive an idle setpoint. If you want it to idle at 1100rpm it monitors the revs and adds advance it it goes below and takes it away if it goes above. You can monitor a graph that shows rpm vs ignition. My car was sitting at 900rpm always adding advance but never acheiving the setpoint because the rpm was already to low. By increasing the advance in the static map at idle rpm I got a perfectly stable idle.
By using my common sense I acheived something that Andy had tried numerous times to sort but couldnt. I remember going to GDI and describing this problem for the first time to Andy. He rushed out with an allen key and wound the stop on the throttle body. If he new anything about mapping a car he probably would have realised that the idle is based on the throttle position so by winding the throttle body increased the TPS feedback and the OMEX thinks you have the throttle pressed so does not try to idle. Another disaster where the car left worse then it had arrived.
It appears that I am more knowledgeable then Andy when it comes to getting a car to idle using this method. Maybe I could set myself up as an approved OMEX mapper. Read this post would you believe I knew what I was on about?
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How much have you delved into the engine mapping side of things? I write control system software for a living mostly factory automation but its not disimilar to engine mapping. You use the inputs from sensors/devices to control outputs via a software program.
I remember spending many a Sunday afternoon in a cold garage helping my dad fix his old bangers. It kind of put me off the whole grease monkey side of cars. At the end of the day I can afford to pay someone else to do that for me.
Some simple modifications to the fuelling and spark maps sorted them out. When I spoke to Andy a few months ago he was still trying to fob me off with the OMEX hardware fault. Apparently these problems were nothing to do with the mapping.
For the idle problem he wanted to fit an air bypass valve. I had a go at it myself one Sunday morning. The OMEX adds or takes away advance to acheive an idle setpoint. If you want it to idle at 1100rpm it monitors the revs and adds advance it it goes below and takes it away if it goes above. You can monitor a graph that shows rpm vs ignition. My car was sitting at 900rpm always adding advance but never acheiving the setpoint because the rpm was already to low. By increasing the advance in the static map at idle rpm I got a perfectly stable idle.
By using my common sense I acheived something that Andy had tried numerous times to sort but couldnt. I remember going to GDI and describing this problem for the first time to Andy. He rushed out with an allen key and wound the stop on the throttle body. If he new anything about mapping a car he probably would have realised that the idle is based on the throttle position so by winding the throttle body increased the TPS feedback and the OMEX thinks you have the throttle pressed so does not try to idle. Another disaster where the car left worse then it had arrived.
It appears that I am more knowledgeable then Andy when it comes to getting a car to idle using this method. Maybe I could set myself up as an approved OMEX mapper. Read this post would you believe I knew what I was on about?
and this has what relevance to yours or indeed my knowledge on ITB's or mods in general for the Clio? So you think you have an idea on how to map a car... great, I like apples... what is your point?
Gaining experience of engines and how they work is all well and good, but if someone asks you what cams they should put in their car do you think the average person on here wants a load of BS and waffle about combustion etc etc or a simple, this works, that doesn't. It's like someone that PM'd me the other day asking if they should use Piper 270's in their car, I told them that on an otherwise stock engine that doesn't like to rev they are pointless and to go for something around a 260, or whatever the cat ones measured at on mine (F7R by the way). I know the 270's dont work from personal experience and from when other people have used them and they have needed more revs than the engine can safely deliver. This is just purely an example, but you say single TB is pointless and does nothing, well I'm telling you otherwise. We can go round in circles and do the whole you insult me and I come back with something infinitely more witty and creative but then the thread would just get locked needlessly.
Thats probably the difference between us then. You are happy to understand cars and how they work at a lower level to me.
Going back to ITBs I read an article in a book that described how different inlet lengths effected the performance characteristics of the engine. Basically a longer length gives better torque and shorter more top end. Its like modern cars with variable inlets where a valve closes at a certain rpm to shorten it giving the best of both worlds. When you look at the ktec setup with its short trumpets you think that must be all top end and no torque? What do you think?
Right, whilst you lot go off on one i'll clear some stuff up.
1) Why are they better?.........Design wise, they offer a more efficient path for air to flow through simply, with less tubulance, energy loss etc which allows us to run a smaller dia runner, bumping up velocity and increasing torque through the majority of the rev range........why is the better?....do you need to ask? 225bhp at 8000rpm but 120bhp at 6000rpm is useless.
Secondly manufacture tolerances are tigher, materials are better, simplicity of support fuctions make it better so on and so forth. With a comparable ITB setup you will have to run a new fuel rail, new fuel lines, new throttle cable aswell as modify the actual bodies so that they it isnt a series of poorly matched modular parts......i charge £120+vat to modify jenvey bodies as they need work out of the bag. So overall it is cheaper for parts, support parts and labour.
2) Why has it taken so long............because it has, i dont owe it to anyone to stop work in its entirety just to concentrate on this. Jan was the proposed timescale, its overrun.....but at least some of us are conduction new development programs and not just using whats on the market or pinching other peoples ideas.
Will it take longer still....yes, bodies being physically done doesnt mean that they will instantly be put on a car, wired up and run in the same day. Testing will take its own time, when i have time and funds, to do back to back tests and develop a near plug and play kit.
3)Anti climax........maybe so for people who dont truely understand the intricacies of engine systems.........you all scream wonders when a computer comes out 0.16ghz faster that the last one and in blue. But like i said, ITB's and new inlets are not the same development program, but one has to be completed before the other.
We are all chasing percentage gains in this industry, and nobody really wants to pay for it either so its a balancing act. £4000-5000 for engine work is nothing in the real world, you really need to compare it to what people SHOULD be charging for their time. Most gladly pay £120/hr to talk to an accountant on the phone.
4)Single bodies.......S1600 rally cars run 60mm MAX TB's and run 220-230bhp from 1.6ltrs. Le mans cars run restrictors that are about 38 and 42mm respectively and they pump out henous amounts of bhp. The tuning industry in the states has hondas running plenums with 64mm bodies and 300bhp............TB size is rarely THE issue. And you might want to talk to the people who originally came up with the idea for the clio and financed its development. The Stock phs1 TB has made near 220bhp anyway.
I cant think of anything else contructive to add, but as always i'm here to answer all questions and not hide in the dark. But maybe some people need to think about how hard it is to develop new items time wise and financially, aint no walk in the park.
1) Why are they better?.........Design wise, they offer a more efficient path for air to flow through simply, with less tubulance, energy loss etc which allows us to run a smaller dia runner, bumping up velocity and increasing torque through the majority of the rev range........why is the better?....do you need to ask? 225bhp at 8000rpm but 120bhp at 6000rpm is useless.
Secondly manufacture tolerances are tigher, materials are better, simplicity of support fuctions make it better so on and so forth. With a comparable ITB setup you will have to run a new fuel rail, new fuel lines, new throttle cable aswell as modify the actual bodies so that they it isnt a series of poorly matched modular parts......i charge £120+vat to modify jenvey bodies as they need work out of the bag. So overall it is cheaper for parts, support parts and labour.
2) Why has it taken so long............because it has, i dont owe it to anyone to stop work in its entirety just to concentrate on this. Jan was the proposed timescale, its overrun.....but at least some of us are conduction new development programs and not just using whats on the market or pinching other peoples ideas.
Will it take longer still....yes, bodies being physically done doesnt mean that they will instantly be put on a car, wired up and run in the same day. Testing will take its own time, when i have time and funds, to do back to back tests and develop a near plug and play kit.
3)Anti climax........maybe so for people who dont truely understand the intricacies of engine systems.........you all scream wonders when a computer comes out 0.16ghz faster that the last one and in blue. But like i said, ITB's and new inlets are not the same development program, but one has to be completed before the other.
We are all chasing percentage gains in this industry, and nobody really wants to pay for it either so its a balancing act. £4000-5000 for engine work is nothing in the real world, you really need to compare it to what people SHOULD be charging for their time. Most gladly pay £120/hr to talk to an accountant on the phone.
4)Single bodies.......S1600 rally cars run 60mm MAX TB's and run 220-230bhp from 1.6ltrs. Le mans cars run restrictors that are about 38 and 42mm respectively and they pump out henous amounts of bhp. The tuning industry in the states has hondas running plenums with 64mm bodies and 300bhp............TB size is rarely THE issue. And you might want to talk to the people who originally came up with the idea for the clio and financed its development. The Stock phs1 TB has made near 220bhp anyway.
I cant think of anything else contructive to add, but as always i'm here to answer all questions and not hide in the dark. But maybe some people need to think about how hard it is to develop new items time wise and financially, aint no walk in the park.
Yeah I'd actually say that's fair, I know what I feel I need to know in relation to what car and engine I have and am more interested in how I can make it quicker, so my main real interest is in what does and doesn't work. Like you say, shorter trumpets = less torque and in theory more top end, but in reality they dont give you more top end, they just dont suffer as much, but the crux of that will be the fact it's down on power and torque overall anyway, so the end result is that it's less top end regardless.
So earlier on your saying that there have been no reasons for it being better, then now you say it doesnt matter you just want someone to say "this works, that doesn't"?
Come on now jon, your a nice guy deep down and nothing like you are on the net, so lets talk sensibly before it does get locked.
no, I think you're deliberately mis interpreting it lol. I want to know the benifits of this new system obviously as it's not been tried on a Clio, at the same time as previously stated, from the current lot of mods I know what does and doesn't work on an NA engine. I make my own mind up as to what works though, hence the post on piper 270's on F7R's
Audi TT 225
I dont think anything he says is gonna make ya happy jebus LOL
Wait for the kit to come out Im sure it will have all sorts of figures with it but at the mo if its in development you cant really ask that because its not been tested properly. Im guessing in theory it should be "better" but we'll have to wait for the live testing to finish to get some results no?
Wait for the kit to come out Im sure it will have all sorts of figures with it but at the mo if its in development you cant really ask that because its not been tested properly. Im guessing in theory it should be "better" but we'll have to wait for the live testing to finish to get some results no?
ChrisR
ClioSport Club Member
I've already asked nicely a couple of pages back, nice to see people taking notice. Locking thread for now, will let people gather their toys back into their prams and we'll start again..
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