Timing Belt, oh bugger!

[mocod]

I was driving from Sheffield down to Surrey, in fairness in a fairly spirited manner. When I hit some of the 50mph average speed sections, when changing the music I noticed a new faint rattle. I thought it was probably the exhaust heatshield, attached to the steering rack which I changed last weekend.

Anyway it's a very minor noise so I continue. Pulling into my parent's town of Cobham, the car feels a little strange, slightly down on power, then about 100 yards from my parents house there is a funny clunking noise followed by the engine cutting out and PAS going dead. So I pull over and try to start it once, but it won't fire. So get my Dad to come tow me the last little bit.

First thing I decided to check in the morning was the timing belt and it looked ok at first. Then we crank the engine and the belt jumps all over the place and goes loose, and a torrent of swear words pour from my mouth.

You can see the loose belt here:

A little bit of plastic jumped out too, which I assume is some part of one of the pulleys.

Looking at the exhausts it looks as though the car was running rich for a good part of the journey as they are very sooty, so the timing had probably started to go off as the belt loosened which would explain the loss of power.

It's a 182 FF, 74k miles. The previous owner had the timing belt done and I even rang him after about 6 months when I was getting the 72k service to double check and be sure I didn't need to get it done. The auxiliary belt and all tensioners, pulleys etc. were done at 72k, so that belt is fine.

I can only guess that when the timing belt was done the pulleys weren't and that one of them has disintegrated. Luckily it only happened at 10mph, not long before that I was going a hell of a lot faster than that!

So will have to get the head off and see what the damage is, but I'd be very lucky not to have contact between valves and pistons.

Garage bills for this will be huge, so more than likely I'll be sorting it myself.

Does anyone in the Sheffield area have the timing belt tools that I could borrow, I can reimburse with crates of beer?!

Also, anyone know a rough price for a 2nd hand 182 engine of a similar mileage, as it may work out easier / cheaper to do that if it's properly nackered?

Gutted. Had literally just sorted the car out after a snow incident in January, new subframe, hub, struts, steering rack etc. Many many weekends crawling about underneath fixing it, then this happens!!!

 

[MikeB]

Ouch! Probally be cheaper to get another engine if it has bent valves

 

[Tom@JMS]

It depends entirely on what you can get an engine for, and if you would rather buy a second hand block & service it out of the car (clutch, cambelt, entire, aux setup, poss water pump) to make it future proof, or just take the time to repair the engine you have now. First step will realistically be to asses the sort of damage that you have now - whip the spark plugs out - it will soon become clear if things have gone badly array!

 

[sideways danny]

I spy tippex marks

 

[sophiesdad]

I spy tippex marks

never a good sign.

 

[ScarySquirrel]

Unlucky dude.

If the engine is knackered then I feel for you. I'm going through the (very expensive) process of getting mine replaced in my 182

 

[davo172]

Who did the belt mate did you get a reciept to say it was done you should ALWAYS change tensioners as well as belts .

 

[mocod]

What do the tippex marks mean? That they did it without the proper tools?

Went on trust with regards the belt change, but had a receipt for the parts. clearly a massive error!

Is it possible to use the 172 engine?

Until I get it apart it's difficult to know what I needthanks for replies though, I imagine I'll be posting up a fair few queries over the next few weeks!

 

[Fred@BTM]

tippex means - the person doing the job doesn't know what they're doing, its not a k-series!

 

[jack_davey]

I've got timing tools however I'm in surrey, I'm assuming you were travelling to meet family?

 

[Jay Payne]

tippex means - the person doing the job doesn't know what they're doing, its not a k-series!

Doesnt the Renault manual suggest using tipex marks on the cam pulleys so you know when its spun over once to set the belt tension?


I had tipex on the crank pulley of my old one, and on the crank itself, Lol

 

[The Spaniard]

tippex means - the person doing the job doesn't know what they're doing, its not a k-series!

Please explain exactly why.

 

[Fred@BTM]

because you don't need any marks, the tools take care of everything for you

plus if you do the cambelt the correct way (ie slackening off the inlet and exhaust pullies) tipex is pointless

if the cambelt is done the wrong way (ie inlet and exhaust cams NOT loosened off) timing WIL be out

 

[The Spaniard]

But i thought it was a better engine than the f7r? Floating pullies sounds like a right ball ache to me.

 

[sideways danny]

But i thought it was a better engine than the f7r? Floating pullies sounds like a right ball ache to me.

it is better

It's a ballache for those who are inexperienced with it. Those of us that have done literally hundreds dont find it such a problem

 

[Laine_16v]

it is better

It's a ballache for those who are inexperienced with it. Those of us that have done literally hundreds dont find it such a problem

Can you explain how its better?

I dont really see how it is, they just made it more complex for no reason.

 

[mocod]

I've got timing tools however I'm in surrey, I'm assuming you were travelling to meet family?

Yeah I was visiting my parents who live in Cobham, car conked out just before I got there. Borrowed my mum's car to get back up here, which I need to deliver back to her soon, so I've bought myself a little runabout. Towbar and space to throw an engine in the back, perfect!

May be back down to Surrey again soon, so will pm you about the timing tools...

 

[Lozza-p]

I spy tippex marks

tipex marks are good on any other engine even if its got timing marks i still mark it up as its for my piece of mind.

but like its been said if the pullys spin free there is no point.

i do cam belts at work but i dunno about doing my 172 when thats due im scarred lol

 

[Austin-182]

Why is it bad that the exaust looks like that mate?

 

[Da]

Why is it bad that the exaust looks like that mate?

Sooty deposits, over fuelling - timing possibly out.

 

[Austin-182]

Since ive had my new exaust on mine gets a bit like that around the botom of the pipe but not as bad as that, should i be woried lol?

 

[Da]

Not really, could be a host of reasons - O2 sensor for one.

My pipes were sooty as hell when my MAP sensor started playing up.

 

[Austin-182]

Wers the o2 sensor at? Is it a replacement job or jus a clean on it? Cheers

 

[Jay Payne]

tipex marks are good on any other engine even if its got timing marks i still mark it up as its for my piece of mind.

but like its been said if the pullys spin free there is no point.

i do cam belts at work but i dunno about doing my 172 when thats due im scarred lol

What belts do you do? The Clio isnt that hard if youv'e done 'modern' engines before. Its not much different to a Zetec and they been around since 1992

 

[mocod]

Sooty deposits, over fuelling - timing possibly out.

Exactly that. They definitely weren't that sooty before, and wouldn't expect it on a long journey. If you're just doing short runs, it'll be running rich a lot of the time anyway when warming up, so I wouldn't worry.

 

[roncee]

i've had my 172 a month now. bought from a local lad (not on this forum). said that he changed the belts but no paperwork. just got sideways danny to do the full 72k service. cam belt was perishing and on the way out!

i'm glad i got it changed by sidways danny(who did a great job) and personally wouldnt rely on paperwork

 

[mocod]

I've got timing tools however I'm in surrey, I'm assuming you were travelling to meet family?

Hey Jack, just tried to pm you but you inbox is full!

I'm heading down to Surrey tonight, then heading up to London in the morning on Saturday. If you're about and I can borrow the timing tools (happy to leave you a deposit) that would help me out big time.

I'll be online, so pm me if you see this in time.

Cheers
Andy

 

[mocod]

Found a thread with details of all the timing belt tools, so just going to order that from Renault, can always sell afterwards.

Pretty happy with the procedure, makes sense to release all the pulleys and free wheel them to be certain the timing is spot on. Was a bit surprised all the timing is held to together by friction though!

Slowly stripping bits off after work each day now, should have the head off soon, then I will know what parts I need.

However, I'll definitely need a new head gasket kit, and I've found one which comes with a full set of valves too for £134. Anyone got any views on quailty of this / know the company?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-CLIO-LAGUNA-F4R-F4P-HEAD-GASKET-SET-VALVES-KIT-/140343932169?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20ad267509#ht_1791wt_911

Also any tips on how to get the rear camshaft covers out? I pierced the middle, bent them around a bit, pulled them with pliers and generally mangled the s**t out of them, but they aren't coming?!

Cheers
Andy

 

[Christopher]

The little rubber bungs?

Needle-nosed plyers.

 

[sideways danny]

slim screwdriver, down the side of the bung, then gently prise it out. If it really wont come, jab something through the center and lever it like that

 

[Soot1e]

Sooty deposits, over fuelling - timing possibly out.

Then clank, clank, clank. Gonna be expensive, sorry.

 

[mocod]

Then clank, clank, clank. Gonna be expensive, sorry.

there wasn't a whole lot of clanking. Now I'm getting further, I have a little hope. It still turns over by hand from the crankshaft and the two camshafts are more or less still timed together. The belt alternates between being tight and pretty slack at the top. Hopefully it's just come loose, but not totally lost all timing.

Taken the inlet and exhaust manifolds off and from the top the valves look ok, but can't be sure yet. Can't decide whether to just change the timing belt first and do a compression test, or just get the head off anyway to be certain?!

Got the rubber bungs out in the end, mole grips was the answer for me!

 

[mocod]

I think the idler wheel has seen better days!

The other half has started to smash its way through the lower cambelt cover and has been chewing at the back of the auxiliary belt, very annoying as I only changed that 3 months ago. The auxiliary tensioner wheel has a chunk out of it too, so I can add another auxiliary belt kit onto the list of parts now too.

So far I need:

Timing belt tools
Timing belt kit
Auxiliary belt kit
Lower timing belt cover
Head gasket kit

and I havent even seen if I have any bent valves yet!

 

[mocod]

Another update, as I got the head off today. Looks like it´s just the exhaust valves that have contacted the pistons, the inlet valves seem ok.

They´ve rubbed the recesses in the pistons. The markings on the valves are not that bad, I think it´s been a fairly flat contact, so don´t think it´s actually bent the valves, but can´t be sure yet. The marks in the pistons don´t look great, but then they stand out a lot from the sooty pistons, think I might get away with them as they are, but would be helpful to see if others agree? The marks don´t go into the edges of the pistons and there´s no markings or scrapes on the bores as far as I can see (In the photos the piston marks are reflected on the bores, so kinda looks like they are damaged but they arent!).

Cylinder 1:

Cylinder 2:

Cylinder 3:

Cylinder 4:

 

[sideways danny]

i wouldn't risk it, especially as the head is off already. I'd probably just go for a set of exhaust valves and be done with it

 

[mocod]

i wouldn't risk it, especially as the head is off already. I'd probably just go for a set of exhaust valves and be done with it

Sorry I was meaning to ask if I´d get away with the pistons like that, was planning to change the exhaust valves, but you´ve basically answered that anyway, cheers!

Gonna do a vacuum test on it tomorrow (work in a composites place, so we have vacuum pumps, valves and bagging!) just to see if the valves are actually seating ok at the moment. That would give me a bit of hope that things are still aligned, so I can just change the valves. Will probably do the stem seals for all of them though, as I´m pretty sure I had a leak previously.

Whilst I´ve got the thing in pieces and have another car to get me about, is there anything I could do myself to improve things? Thinking of possible polishing of the inlet chambers with a dremel, diy matched inlets etc? Or is that better done with cnc machines and flow benches?

Think I got pretty lucky here, don´t know how the belt didn´t actually break as it wore its way through the broken piece of idler wheel.

 

[sideways danny]

oh, pistons should be ok

 

[mocod]

Couldn´t really do a vacuum test how I wanted in the end, so just sat the head at the right angle and poured solvent around the head of the valves to see if any leaked past. Surprisingly all the exhaust valves were ok, but two of the inlet ones leaked!

So I´ll probably do the full set!

 

[Laine_16v]

Get inlet valves from a company called Trechii, £35 posted for a full set, bargain. i used them in my head rebuild, the quality is spot on.

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

I have a full set of Valves. in pefect Condition From my project head, out ready to ship if you need them let me know