Track car coilover spring rates......

[Waitey]

'cause most people aren't running enough droop and are too low for anything outside an aero car.

Oh 100% agree.

 

[Filters]

Roll is sorted with ARB's.

14kg is akin to what a GT2 car with full aero package would run. Which is handling the 1500kg of the car and a further load of about 800/1000kg from downforce.

This!

Everyone ends up with an oversprung/underdampened set up. They then lower their car as much as possible, leaving them wondering why the other three oversprung corners are forcing the load on to the front and causing scrub. So they throw stiffer springs again at the front thinking it'll solve the issue rather than look at ride height or front track width.

In a FWD car under hard cornering you want the car cocking the rear inner wheel, with the load spread as equally across the front end so that the front wheels are pulling you through the corner while the back end dances through the apex.

Massively high spring rates wont help you achieve that.

 

[JamesBryan]

This!

Everyone ends up with an oversprung/underdampened set up. They then lower their car as much as possible, leaving them wondering why the other three oversprung corners are forcing the load on to the front and causing scrub. So they throw stiffer springs again at the front thinking it'll solve the issue rather than look at ride height or front track width.

In a FWD car under hard cornering you want the car cocking the rear inner wheel, with the load spread as equally across the front end so that the front wheels are pulling you through the corner while the back end dances through the apex.

Massively high spring rates wont help you achieve that.

How much would you say was too high?

These are the rate for the Mk3 Cup Racer:

75Nm front, 130Nm rear or 8kg / 13kg.

 

[Filters]

How much would you say was too high?

These are the rate for the Mk3 Cup Racer:

75Nm front, 130Nm rear or 8kg / 13kg.

Personally, on a 1*2 I wouldn't want to go higher than 7/9kg split.
That said with our Mk4CR the most we ran all season was 9/12kg split.

I run the rear of my 172 cup on sportlines as they have a progressive rate of 40-85nm which is more than enough, allowing for a good rake angle without compromising the front ride height. Many including @Daniel have commented on how stupidly compliant the rear of the car is and how flat it stays as it dances away.

 

[LeeRS]

Personally, on a 1*2 I wouldn't want to go higher than 7/9kg split.
That said with our Mk4CR the most we ran all season was 9/12kg split.

I run the rear of my 172 cup on sportlines as they have a progressive rate of 40-85nm which is more than enough, allowing for a good rake angle without compromising the front ride height. Many including @Daniel have commented on how stupidly compliant the rear of the car is and how flat it stays as it dances away.

Could you list your suspension setup please @Filters ?

Keen to give this a go from what you have said.

 

[Filters]

Could you list your suspension setup please @Filters ?

Keen to give this a go from what you have said.

For the mk4? No chance

172 cup Track
Front - 8kg spring, 4 clicks back from full stiff on the damper (full soft if wet) - 30mm drop - PMS top mounts and brace - 20mm spacers
Rear - eibach sportline - cup shock - whiteline arb (disconnect if wet) - 25mm drop - 15mms spacers

 

[LeeRS]

For the mk4? No chance

172 cup Track
Front - 8kg spring, 4 clicks back from full stiff on the damper (full soft if wet) - 30mm drop - PMS top mounts and brace - 20mm spacers
Rear - eibach sportline - cup shock - whiteline arb (disconnect if wet) - 25mm drop - 15mms spacers

I did mean the 172

What coilovers are you running on the front?

This setup would save me a lot of cost on full coilovers setup and like you say, gives good handling.

 

[Filters]

I did mean the 172

What coilovers are you running on the front?

This setup would save me a lot of cost on full coilovers setup and like you say, gives good handling.

Currently Gaz Gold but they’re due a refurb or replacement which will likely be just front BC DS’s

 

[LeeRS]

Currently Gaz Gold but they’re due a refurb or replacement which will likely be just front BC DS’s

Perfect.

Appreciate your input on this mate as I’ve been reading so many different variations and opinions all at which come in at significant cost differences.

I’ll give the front coilovers and rear shock/spring setup a go and let you know how it goes 👍

 

[Waitey]

This!

Everyone ends up with an oversprung/underdampened set up. They then lower their car as much as possible, leaving them wondering why the other three oversprung corners are forcing the load on to the front and causing scrub. So they throw stiffer springs again at the front thinking it'll solve the issue rather than look at ride height or front track width.

In a FWD car under hard cornering you want the car cocking the rear inner wheel, with the load spread as equally across the front end so that the front wheels are pulling you through the corner while the back end dances through the apex.

Massively high spring rates wont help you achieve that.

I'm glad someone gets it.

When you look at the amount of total bump travel people have its shocking. I've seen less than 2" on the front inc the length of the bump stop.

So you hit a curb, instantly use all of the bump travel across the whole front axel, the shocks are essentially against the top mounts, your spring rate at that point is now infinite, the force put back into the contact patch is way over any mechanical friction the tyre can generate, so you go straight on, no turning or stopping force can be applied in that system.

Most F1 cars run >3" in bump, but some lad in a Civic needs less than that to drive round Blyton.

 

[R3k1355]

Limitations of the platform tho isn't it?

You want to lower the car and reduce the centre of gravity to improve handling, but but you're stuck with the original road cars suspension pick up points. So the option you're left with is reduce suspension travel.

 

[Filters]

Limitations of the platform tho isn't it?

You want to lower the car and reduce the centre of gravity to improve handling, but but you're stuck with the original road cars suspension pick up points. So the option you're left with is reduce suspension travel.

Considering with the right bits, caster/camber etc are all adjustable. I'd say the limitations are peoples approach to the problem, that then add further problems.

As @Waitey rightfully pointed out, the first thing the majority of people do is over lower the car so it spends the majority of its outing on track riding the bump stops... let alone the fact they've got 10-12kg+ springs on a 900-1000kg car with as much downforce as breeze block stopping the damper from doing it's job.

The car is then far to stiff in the spring which causes more bump steer, so they'll (for arguments sake) throw a bump steer kit on and hope for the best. And while yes, that'll solve the bump steer, what it's going to mask is the fact your oversprung which is why it will still handle like a bag of spanners on corner entry and exit.

 

[Waitey]

Considering with the right bits, caster/camber etc are all adjustable. I'd say the limitations are peoples approach to the problem, that then add further problems.

As @Waitey rightfully pointed out, the first thing the majority of people do is over lower the car so it spends the majority of its outing on track riding the bump stops... let alone the fact they've got 10-12kg+ springs on a 900-1000kg car with as much downforce as breeze block stopping the damper from doing it's job.

The car is then far to stiff in the spring which causes more bump steer, so they'll (for arguments sake) throw a bump steer kit on and hope for the best. And while yes, that'll solve the bump steer, what it's going to mask is the fact your oversprung which is why it will still handle like a bag of spanners on corner entry and exit.

Yeah most of, well probably all of, the benefits of moving the COG down by 50mm will be lost in the fact the suspension doesn't function anymore.

I love seeing someone turn up to a track day in a MK2 Escort with about a foot of wheel travel, then hand the trackday lot their arses through technical sections where they can get everything out of their tyres.

 

[T3gav]

For the mk4? No chance

172 cup Track
Front - 8kg spring, 4 clicks back from full stiff on the damper (full soft if wet) - 30mm drop - PMS top mounts and brace - 20mm spacers
Rear - eibach sportline - cup shock - whiteline arb (disconnect if wet) - 25mm drop - 15mms spacers

Do the spacers make much difference? I've always avoided them thinking it will make the scrub radius/tramlining worse.

 

[MLB]

Massive difference, without spacers I can't fit my wheels.

 

[Advikaz]

Massive difference, without spacers I can't fit my wheels.

I'm fitting my coilovers on the 5th (BC's) on my FF182

I've currently got 18mm fronts and 10mm rear spacers.. not sure if they're going to need to come off.........

Any thoughts?

 

[SharpyClio]

I am going to be fitting BC coilovers soon as well and I am running the same spacers, I intend to leave mine on.

I am also going to fit solid top mounts and a RARB at the same time, see how it feels with a completely different set up.

 

[Advikaz]

I am going to be fitting BC coilovers soon as well and I am running the same spacers, I intend to leave mine on.

I am also going to fit solid top mounts and a RARB at the same time, see how it feels with a completely different set up.

That is essentially the setup I am going for aswell mate as well as Camber bolts

 

[Mr Underhill]

Yeah most of, well probably all of, the benefits of moving the COG down by 50mm will be lost in the fact the suspension doesn't function anymore.

I love seeing someone turn up to a track day in a MK2 Escort with about a foot of wheel travel, then hand the trackday lot their arses through technical sections where they can get everything out of their tyres.

Most car enthusiasts these days prefer following social media trends or quick information rather than learning hands-on or seeking advice from experts.

They are a marketer's dream.

It makes sense to stand on a hill, watch a kid in a Clio winning races in a novice championship, and then approach them to ask about the setup. In my experience, many drivers and teams are happy to share their knowledge.

 

[MLB]

I'm fitting my coilovers on the 5th (BC's) on my FF182

I've currently got 18mm fronts and 10mm rear spacers.. not sure if they're going to need to come off.........

Any thoughts?

I have very little technical knowledge about setting up cars, but very interested to read all the info above. Only reason I have spacers is to clear the brembo calipers.

My own goal has always been to get coilovers on mine with fairly low spring rates and get it corner weighted at pretty much original ride height without spacers as I think that would make it a much better car to drive.

Reading what's been said above I think that's probably true but might induce more body roll which would need to be sorted with an anti roll bar.

 

[Waitey]

I have very little technical knowledge about setting up cars, but very interested to read all the info above. Only reason I have spacers is to clear the brembo calipers.

My own goal has always been to get coilovers on mine with fairly low spring rates and get it corner weighted at pretty much original ride height without spacers as I think that would make it a much better car to drive.

Reading what's been said above I think that's probably true but might induce more body roll which would need to be sorted with an anti roll bar.

Smashed it.

 

[MLB]

Following up on this, are there any options on stiffening up he front for a Clio 182?

Doesn't look like there are any thicker ARB options.

I've got black series bushes on the wishbones and purple on the ARB, would black ARB bushes be an upgrade without introducing a lot of NVH on the road?

 

[Mr Underhill]

Following up on this, are there any options on stiffening up he front for a Clio 182?

Doesn't look like there are any thicker ARB options.

I've got black series bushes on the wishbones and purple on the ARB, would black ARB bushes be an upgrade without introducing a lot of NVH on the road?

I found most of the NVH came from the uprated engine and dog bone mounts. I had really hard Strongflex WB and ARB bushes (Black series equivalents) on my road going 182 and it was nice to drive. I put the stock mounts back on and it had minimum NVH.

 

[PhillipM]

Yeah most of, well probably all of, the benefits of moving the COG down by 50mm will be lost in the fact the suspension doesn't function anymore.

I love seeing someone turn up to a track day in a MK2 Escort with about a foot of wheel travel, then hand the trackday lot their arses through technical sections where they can get everything out of their tyres.

Nothing, and I mean *nothing* matched this all morning at a damp Oulton park track. The only thing that came past was a Radical on slicks when it dried up after dinner:

People seriously overestimate how much gain they get from running lower versus actually having complaint suspension and letting good dampers earn their money and work.
There's even a video of it blowing past a track prepped Clio somewhere...

 

[Waitey]

Nothing, and I mean *nothing* matched this all morning at a damp Oulton park track. The only thing that came past was a Radical on slicks when it dried up after dinner:
View attachment 1684304

View attachment 1684305


People seriously overestimate how much gain they get from running lower versus actually having complaint suspension and letting good dampers earn their money and work.
There's even a video of it blowing past a track prepped Clio somewhere...

A car will want to roll less on taller springs too. Which seems to melt peoples brains.

 

[Waitey]

Following up on this, are there any options on stiffening up he front for a Clio 182?

Doesn't look like there are any thicker ARB options.

I've got black series bushes on the wishbones and purple on the ARB, would black ARB bushes be an upgrade without introducing a lot of NVH on the road?

Whats the issue you are having? When doesn't it feel stiff?

 

[Waitey]

 

[MLB]

Whats the issue you are having? When doesn't it feel stiff?

No issues, just checking if there's any way to get a stiffer ARB for a Clio.

Will be fitting ast coilovers with 70/40 spring rates. If there is lots of body roll is there anything you can really do about that on a Clio?

 

[Waitey]

No issues, just checking if there's any way to get a stiffer ARB for a Clio.

Will be fitting ast coilovers with 70/40 spring rates. If there is lots of body roll is there anything you can really do about that on a Clio?

Raise your ride height a bit.

 

[bozothenutter]

No issues, just checking if there's any way to get a stiffer ARB for a Clio.

Will be fitting ast coilovers with 70/40 spring rates. If there is lots of body roll is there anything you can really do about that on a Clio?

Roll centre correction....