TWM ITB's

[matt_adio]

Hi, I recently brought a clio 172 (2002) which I am loving, I also picked up some throttle bodies with this buy for around £500 more (doing my research I found this was a good buy as once fitted i'm looking at 200+ BHP and they are sell for 800 used usually).

Has anyone fitted these before? If so do you know what is required? It's proving difficult to find solid information on the net. Any advice is greatly appreicated

Here are some pictures of the ITB's:

 

[Chip-mk1]

Do you have an ECU to control them etc as well? Or are you under the impression you can just bolt them on and they will work?

I can give you details of what to do, but just trying to see what level I need to be pitching it at.

 

[matt_adio]

Somebody told me they can bolt on and work on the standard ECU but only just about and a new ECU is required. Do you know how much I could pick one up for? Also I have heard people had to get a new throttle cable installed?

If this will cost to much I will probably end up selling but that would be a reluctant sale as these sound brilliant and 200BHP does sound nice.

 

[Chip-mk1]

The standard ECU operates on the basis of manifold vacuum as its main input (versus RPM) to determine what fuelling and ignition timing to give the engine.

It is just about possible to make it work on ITBS by joining them all together after the throttle plate, but is a massive ball ache to map.

To do it properly, you need an aftermarket ecu, and if you have a later car with a fly by wire throttle you need to convert to cable throttle as well.

 

[Silent_Scone]

I'd say you'll struggle to hit 200bhp with those trumpets

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'd say you'll struggle to hit 200bhp with those trumpets

Agreed unless its cammed, although TBH currently trumpet length is the least of his worries really. lol

 

[matt_adio]

The standard ECU operates on the basis of manifold vacuum as its main input (versus RPM) to determine what fuelling and ignition timing to give the engine.

It is just about possible to make it work on ITBS by joining them all together after the throttle plate, but is a massive ball ache to map.

To do it properly, you need an aftermarket ecu, and if you have a later car with a fly by wire throttle you need to convert to cable throttle as well.

I will have to convert to cable throttle then as I currently have a fly by wire throttle. But the sounds of it this will end up costing more than it's worth which is disappointing. Arghhhhh. I may well head to ebay feeling glum. haha

 

[Cookson]

Just get an ebay remap, that will give you 205bhp instantly. Even more if you have the bucket filter mod

 

[adnic69]

Gents didn't Russ-16v do this on a std ecu and ended up with 209bhp. ECU was remapped by Paul at RStuning. Other than converting to a PH1 throttle pedal I don't see what is any different.

 

[Russ_16v]

Yup I did, it made 194bhp on Pauls rollers mind, the 209bhp was on another set.


I was lucky, I managed to do it all SUPER cheap, but mine was a development muel - it needed more development to make it better - it worked fine and was good flat out, it was also fine on light throttle, it was on sharp openings that it sometimes struggled - i had planned a way to stop that, but I ended up selling it as my Elise came up at a price I couldn't turn down.

So yes, it can be done, but if you are not very mechanically minded, then going aftermarket ECU would probably be a quicker route

 

[matt_adio]

Yeah this guy has done it:

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?317888-Ph1-172-itb-d-on-std-ECU-page-13-on/page13

He achieved:

191.3 BHP at the fly

159 at the wheels

158 lb ft of torque

 

[matt_adio]

Hmm... I really am looking towards selling these. buying a new aftermarket ECU aswell as a new throttle cable etc etc seems like it will end up costing quite alot...

Does anyone think I will get around what I paid for these?

 

[adnic69]

Russ thanks for the above.
Matt is a friend and I will probably end up doing most of the work should he decide to go ahead. The ITB's he got for a very good price. The rest I am quite comfortable with what you did on yours, just a bit more clarity and a few extra pictures would be good. If I PM you would you be kind enough to help?

 

[adnic69]

Matt you don't have to have an aftermarket ECU. Russ has proved it by his working. A throttle cable and pedal is not going to break the bank either unless you are buying a gold one??

 

[Chip-mk1]

How do you guys who think its going to run on the standard ECU intend to get round the fact that the standard ECU in this case is a FBW one?

VERY different problem to Russ's car, all he had to deal with was the fact he was stuck with a speed vs density fuelling algorythm, he didnt have to deal with that as well.

If you were in a race series where for some bizarre reason you had to keep the standard ECU but were allowed multi-throttle then even on the phase 2 ECU it actually IS possible, but it would be SO much more expensive than just fitting aftermarket and all to just get results that arent actually very good anyway.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Matt you don't have to have an aftermarket ECU. Russ has proved it by his working. A throttle cable and pedal is not going to break the bank either unless you are buying a gold one??

Matt, please dont let yourself waste your time and money by listening to people giving you advice on internet forums about complex subjects like retro modifying a manufacturer ECU to run throttle bodies who have NO concept of what is actually involved, you will end up regretting it.

If you want the easiest and cheapest way to use them, its to ignore the people in this thread and just buy aftermarket management.

 

[matt_adio]

Matt, please dont let yourself waste your time and money by listening to people giving you advice on internet forums about complex subjects like retro modifying a manufacturer ECU to run throttle bodies who have NO concept of what is actually involved, you will end up regretting it.

If you want the easiest and cheapest way to use them, its to ignore the people in this thread and just buy aftermarket management.

Cheers, how much is the cheapest aftermarket management? Also how much do you think it would cost if I simply gave this to a mechanic to sort for me?

 

[adnic69]

Chip I was under the impression that just disconnecting the FBW side of it would be fine. I am guessing that the ECU needs the signal from the FBW part of throttle to adjust fueling?

 

[matt_adio]

Matt you don't have to have an aftermarket ECU. Russ has proved it by his working. A throttle cable and pedal is not going to break the bank either unless you are buying a gold one??

Yeah I just need to know roughly the overall cost of getting this installed. I want but not to the point where I'm splashing another £500 that I wouldn't see a penny back..

 

[Chip-mk1]

Chip I was under the impression that just disconnecting the FBW side of it would be fine. I am guessing that the ECU needs the signal from the FBW part of throttle to adjust fueling?

It uses the FBW throttle as an ICV to get the car to idle nicely among other things.

It is POSSIBLE on the standard ECU, but given the amount of expensive specialist time he would need to do so, it would be cheaper to just fit aftermarket instead.

why would you want to spend more money to get a worse solution by forcing an ECU that doesnt want to into running the ITBs?

Russ did it as a "lets see if it can be done" exercise, and even then if he didnt have Paul helping out cheap as a test bed, and if you factored in the fuel involved etc, if he wanted to do it again and this time had to pay for Pauls time it would cost him more than putting it on aftermarket and just to get worse results, and that was a phase 1 not a phase 2 in the first place.
The phase 1 ecu copes a lot better with things like the lambda sensor being out of calibration or the map being too far from lambda correction to pull back etc as well, there are just loads of small technical details that are going to make this a completely pointless project for someone who wants to do it cheaply and easily.

It just ISNT the way for him to go to get a set of bodies working well on this car cheaply and simply.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah I just need to know roughly the overall cost of getting this installed. I want but not to the point where I'm splashing another £500 that I wouldn't see a penny back..

If you bought secondhand management and could install and map it yourself you could do it for 500 quid, otherwise forget it.
And on the standard management, definately no chance at all unless you have a very well setup friend with a lot of time on his hands who takes an interest in it. (ie how Russ did it with Paul at RS tuning)

 

[adnic69]

Chip thanks for the replies and input. I didn't realise that the PH2 was that much different to a PH1.
Thanks again, best to know now than a bit further down the line.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Chip thanks for the replies and input. I didn't realise that the PH2 was that much different to a PH1.
Thanks again, best to know now than a bit further down the line.

Exactly mate, would hate you to pull your car apart on the basis of a load of people telling you to give it a go, and then afterwards realise you cant actually do what they are implying you can as easily as they make it sound.

for the record though, if you did pay out for aftermarket then it WOULD add value to the car, ITB cars almost always sell for a fair bit more than standard ones.

 

[Laine_16v]

Theres a video on Youtube of a RS Clio on ITB's with what appears to be stock ecu AND using the FBW to actuate throttle angle, just needs some bracketary and modification to the throttle spindle (is it even designed to work against the force of throttle plate spring?). Have a look on youtube.. (i cant get the link as at work at the mo).

 

[Silent_Scone]

I think I saw that a while back Laine, it's in Greece or somewhere? Unless you honestly cannot factor in an aftermarket ECU in your budget, it's not worth even contemplating IMO. Russ had the means and wanted to prove it could be done, and it can. That doesn't instantly mean it's a better solution (nor has he ever said it is)

Besides, you can pick up an Omex 600 for fairly cheap if you shop around. I sold mine for under £400 which I still consider a bargain.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Dont take a youtube video of it running as meaning it actually is now faster and better to drive etc than standard either, lol

 

[Scrooge]

I would always go for the aftermarket ecu as everyone has said. The value of your car will go up, it will cost less to get it running properly and you will get a much better end result.

 

[Dan@SJM]

We(Russ and I) did it PURELY to see if it was Possible. By no means was it better than standalone, but as cheaply as It had been done it was a car running well on ITB's on the OEM ecu.

 

[neil a]

I'm in a similar position as I have the bodies, injectors and filters and I would think I'm still looking at atleast another £1000 for management and mapping.

 

[Silent_Scone]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Omex-600-...CarParts_SM&hash=item2ec12aa374#ht_500wt_1376


I've got an omex loom somewhere though.

 

[neil a]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Omex-600-...CarParts_SM&hash=item2ec12aa374#ht_500wt_1376


I've got an omex loom somewhere though.

Ive already emailed the guy about that , just waiting to hear back from him justnow about the spec of loom.

 

[jpbacs12]

I agree with chip, do some more research, as he said you could get a second hand ecu (if your lucky one with a cal already on it for an f4r ITB'd so you could run the car but it wouldnt be an optimized cal), you will then have to make a loom up if one didnt come with the ecu, Look for the rally boys thats always a good place to find this equipment. you will also need to (if you want it done proper) run a air temp and water temp sensor unless your ecu allows you utilize the standard ones (not all of them do), you will need a 60-2 toothed wheel and crank position sensor as these engines dont like you to split their signal from the factory one!

PS dont let anyone scare you into selling your ecu because 1) it is such a big job its going to cost you millions (lies)
2) They want a nice cheap bargin on some ITB's

Keep them save a little more money and when you are ready make the change, there will be enough people to help as best as possible on here, hope this helps a little

JP

 

[jpbacs12]

Sorry thats was ment to say selling your ITB's **

 

[Chip-mk1]

Last saturday me and mike and Dan on here took all of about 5 hours to get daniels car up and running on aftermarket management, even though it started out without even stuff like fuel lines on it, had no standard ecu on it, wasnt running etc.
It really isnt difficult.
And I made the cal file up well enough to have it revving up ok on the spot etc in all of about 10 mins, another 20 mins (if the car had brakes) and it would have been mapped well enough to use, all be it not yet perfect, its not rocket science, its actually very easy.

 

[jpbacs12]

See ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ the difficult bit is when your are trying to maximize the benefits this takes development time and money alot of! this is why you pay a price for mapping (or generic which are only really a base point) (quality of mapping I cannot speak off due to place person etc) just make sure the guy dosent rock up on a horse wearing boots with spurs and calls you partner!! lol

 

[Dan@SJM]

Lack of seat also was a hinderance, but I did like your idea of trying to map it with just the handbrake

 

[Chip-mk1]

Lack of seat also was a hinderance, but I did like your idea of trying to map it with just the handbrake

I turned up to map a circa 400bhp spec Corsa LET once and the owner informed me it had just suffered from a brake caliper failure and consequently now had only the handbrake to stop it, seeing as it was proper in the middle of nowhere as it was a military site (so wasnt dissimilar to where me and you had in mind) I still gave it a go (with him driving) but I ended up finishing it off on the rollers instead as once it started coming on boost it got a bit ridiculous.

 

[jpbacs12]

Fair play lad noting like doing it on the FLY no pun intended!!! lol

 

[Silent_Scone]

Generally the words 400BHP and no brakes would ring alarm bells

 

[Chip-mk1]

Generally the words 400BHP and no brakes would ring alarm bells

Yeah, looking back I should have known better really, lol.

Oh well, it was his license at risk not mine as I wasnt driving, lol