Understeer on track

[Rossjude1983]

Ok, so try as I may with adapting driving style including left foot braking etc my 172 track cars week point is the bucket load of understeer I seem to face. So much so I’ve even resorted to trying to initiate lift off oversteer to get the thing in check.
Rear end feels almost perfect, even to planted if that’s even a thing.

save me a whole load of track time, is there any ‘big’ alterations I should take a look at before doing any marginal things.
Alternatively any base geometry setups I could ponce?

Chassis spec-
R888 15”
Rear Arb
Spax coilovers
Caged welded
Camber wedges on back
15mm I think front spacers
Stock diff

 

[DaveDreads]

Have you tried the rear arb on it's softest setting?

 

[Rossjude1983]

Have you tried the rear arb on it's softest setting?

Not the softest, but I knocked a hell of a load off of it…. Didn’t seem to help that much tbh

 

[DaveDreads]

The rear could be stiffer than the front causing it to understeer.

 

[Rossjude1983]

The rear could be stiffer than the front causing it to understeer.

Was my second port of call….bought tyre pressures down on the front 28psi hot and done the arb

 

[DaveDreads]

Is is all the time or after the tyres get hot?

 

[JamesBryan]

The rear could be stiffer than the front causing it to understeer.

Stiffer rear would make it oversteer more.

 

[JamesBryan]

What sort of alignment have you got?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Also try to think where it understeers, is it corner entry, mid corner, corner exit. What front camber do you have?

 

[Rossjude1983]

Typically mid to exit is worse, entry isn’t as darty as what I’d expect, but not terrible.

move not yet had the car on any lasers or string lines as yet, car was setup by a professional company the previous owner used. I think there about 2degrees camber up front though.
Had 5 track days in her now, thought it was me but something is definitely not to my taste.

 

[Krarl]

*Gripper diff knocks on door*

👀

 

[JamesBryan]

Could try playing around with tyre pressures.

What are you running front and rear?

 

[Brigsy]

Lsd and roll correction kit. Transforms them.

 

[Coops Mk1]

Get the increase castor front arms too if you haven't already, two things above and as much castor as you can muster makes the difference

 

[Filipe Dias]

Any onboard video ?

 

[Martin_172]

How old are the tyres?

 

[Rossjude1983]

Any onboard video ?

Foolishly I set my go pro up on cockpit and another on feet….. and forgot to charge them 😩

 

[Rossjude1983]

How old are the tyres?

Brand fire new last track day.
I’m lapping slightly quicker and fairly consistent, sounds daft but it ‘feels’ worse on understeer

 

[Rossjude1983]

Lsd and roll correction kit. Transforms them.

Trying to get it somewhere near before shelling out, feels like a geometry thing…. But yes, ultimately I would love to throw a gripper in it

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Spring rates? Light springs up front and roll centre jacking can cause the outside front tyre to load up to much and lose grip quicker than either with a stiffer front or higher RC

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Last track day I did was Brands, car was understeering like a pig around druids. Lowering front tyre pressures from 30 (hot) to 28, and winding front dampers up 4 clicks each side, 2 clicks off rear dampers... made a massive difference, much more than I was expecting.

I'm just a monkey and have no idea what I'm doing with regard to suspension setup for track. However most of the answers for reducing understeer involved winding the front dampers up and fiddling with tyre pressures which is what I did.

Next track day I will take my IR temp gun so I can set tyre pressures and front camber a bit more scientifically.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Last track day I did was Brands, car was understeering like a pig around druids. Lowering front tyre pressures from 30 (hot) to 28, and winding front dampers up 4 clicks each side, 2 clicks off rear dampers... made a massive difference, much more than I was expecting.

I'm just a monkey and have no idea what I'm doing with regard to suspension setup for track. However most of the answers for reducing understeer involved winding the front dampers up and fiddling with tyre pressures which is what I did.

Next track day I will take my IR temp gun so I can set tyre pressures and front camber a bit more scientifically.

Are you planning on taking the clio again or is that definite sell? Arnt you on lowering springs? You could borrow my asts for the day if you want, race springs (110nm rear 90 front).. Takes minutes for me to get them off, would be no bother...

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Are you planning on taking the clio again or is that definite sell? Arnt you on lowering springs? You could borrow my asts for the day if you want, race springs (110nm rear 90 front).. Takes minutes for me to get them off, would be no bother...

But of course in return you need too... Thats right, help me strip the chassis down to its entirety and bolt it up to a roll over jig to be scanned 😄 Kidding. Not long now though!

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Are you planning on taking the clio again or is that definite sell? Arnt you on lowering springs? You could borrow my asts for the day if you want, race springs (110nm rear 90 front).. Takes minutes for me to get them off, would be no bother...

This is me in the mini doing track days, which has many suspension knobs to turn, adjust and break.

The Clio managed 3 laps of brands before the power steering pump left this world. The Clio understeered terribly as well but tyre pressures were the only think I could easily change on the day. I went out to do a few laps to get tyres good and hot (went out on road pressure, 30 psi cold) so they were probably up to near 40psi after a few laps of understeer.

PS - thats very kind of you but I won't be doing another track day in the Clio. I've spend a bucket of money making it all new and shiny and doing a track day would just highlight its flaws are a road car, resulting in me spending even more money on it for it to just die on track.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

This is me in the mini doing track days, which has many suspension knobs to turn, adjust and break.

The Clio managed 3 laps of brands before the power steering pump left this world. The Clio understeered terribly as well but tyre pressures were the only think I could easily change on the day. I went out to do a few laps to get tyres good and hot (went out on road pressure, 30 psi cold) so they were probably up to near 40psi after a few laps of understeer.

PS - thats very kind of you but I won't be doing another track day in the Clio. I've spend a bucket of money making it all new and shiny and doing a track day would just highlight its flaws are a road car, resulting in me spending even more money on it for it to just die on track.

No worries! Understandable mate. Mine is past the point of return so I dont care for it in that way (I wish I did..)

Mini faster on the straights as well? Bigger tyres too? Just more capable than a clio out the bat I guess.. But that steering feel you say, might be able to sort something there... Funny I actually have a mini column laying around, was sent to me by mistake.
Been in contact with the electricians, should be done soon for bridgy so the finish line is in sight..

 

[Robbie Corbett]

No worries! Understandable mate. Mine is past the point of return so I dont care for it in that way (I wish I did..)

Mini faster on the straights as well? Bigger tyres too? Just more capable than a clio out the bat I guess.. But that steering feel you say, might be able to sort something there... Funny I actually have a mini column laying around, was sent to me by mistake.
Been in contact with the electricians, should be done soon for bridgy so the finish line is in sight..

Its not really a fair comparison because I bought the mini pre modified. Its a lot faster down the straights than my 182. Even at Blyton where it felt hyper unstable it was more 'track' than my Clio. Later found out the alignment was all over the shop, one rear wheel had positive camber for example and the rear was toe out by miles

The oversteer was quite amusing, being a very hot day it was ok but in the rain it would have been undrivable. Did a fairly ok but very conservative setup before Brands and it transformed it. Both track days I couldn't touch the fast Clios handling wise (or bottle wise) but it happily buzzed up the straights.

I actually think the Clio drove better on standard 182 wheels without spacers... but the 2118's do look cool.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Its not really a fair comparison because I bought the mini pre modified. Its a lot faster down the straights than my 182. Even at Blyton where if felt hyper unstable it was more 'track' than my Clio. Later found out the alignment was all over the shop, one rear wheel had positive camber for example and the rear was toe out by miles

The oversteer was quite amusing, being a very hot day it was ok but in the rain it would have been undrivable. Did a fairly ok but very conservative setup before Brands and it transformed it. Both track days I couldn't touch the fast Clios handling wise (or bottle wise) but it happily buzzed up the straights.

I actually think the Clio drove better on standard 182 wheels without spacers... but the 2118's do look cool.

I realised this was the unpopular opinions thread where you said it had less steering feel, just for my own thought, whats different about the 2? The mini being Lighter, less return ability, more play, cant feel the break away point as easy?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

The mini steering is faster ratio wise, about the same weight, returns just fine. However I can't feel the point where you are about to lose traction, the Clio the steering weight changes quite a bit just before the car begins to understeer, although the 'feel' is very subjective both cars feel dead compared to say an E46 M3 You should have a drive of it to compare!

Anyway - sorry OP for taking your post off topic.

 

[PhillipM]

Not the softest, but I knocked a hell of a load off of it…. Didn’t seem to help that much tbh

I mean, sorta the wrong way around, you want the rear bar stiffer to cure understeer, not softer.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

The mini steering is faster ratio wise, about the same weight, returns just fine. However I can't feel the point where you are about to lose traction, the Clio the steering weight changes quite a bit just before the car begins to understeer, although the 'feel' is very subjective both cars feel dead compared to say an E46 M3 You should have a drive of it to compare!

Anyway - sorry OP for taking your post off topic.

Yes apologies op. This exact thing you speak of Ive been studying recently but it gets into its 'f**king difficult' territory and requires loads more tyre dynamics knowledge to fully understand, pneumatic trail, mechanical trail, self aligning torque and slip angle.

Ive seen the guts of an e46 column... Similar to the e90, dont need to drive one to know it would be pretty poor. EDIT: So the e46 is better than the clio and mini? Ive read a lot of people complaining of the steering play in the e46..


"Yes apologies op. This exact thing you speak of...." Sorry!! 😄 😋

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Yes apologies op. This exact thing you speak of Ive been studying recently but it gets into its 'f**king difficult' territory and requires loads more tyre dynamics knowledge to fully understand, pneumatic trail, mechanical trail, self aligning torque and slip angle.

Ive seen the guts of an e46 column... Similar to the e90, dont need to drive one to know it would be pretty poor. EDIT: So the e46 is better than the clio and mini? Ive read a lot of people complaining of the steering play in the e46..


"Yes apologies op. This exact thing you speak of...." Sorry!! 😄 😋

View attachment 1613861

Yes, I like the steering on the E46 M3, they have a different rack to the rest of the e46 range, I don't know if that makes them better or worse. They are variable ratio and people swap them out for the purple tag racks a lot. But E46 M3 steering is less dead than the Clio - to me anyway.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Yes, I like the steering on the E46 M3, they have a different rack to the rest of the e46 range, I don't know if that makes them better or worse. They are variable ratio and people swap them out for the purple tag racks a lot. But E46 M3 steering is less dead than the Clio - to me anyway.

My only experience is with an e90 and e60 both non M3/5 but still hydraulic and apart from the play in the e90 I think the steering in general is almost perfect, just needs a tad more self aligning torque.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Drop me a PM dude, don't want to trash this chaps thread any more than we have

 

[FrogJam Motorsport]

Ok, so try as I may with adapting driving style including left foot braking etc my 172 track cars week point is the bucket load of understeer I seem to face. So much so I’ve even resorted to trying to initiate lift off oversteer to get the thing in check.
Rear end feels almost perfect, even to planted if that’s even a thing.

save me a whole load of track time, is there any ‘big’ alterations I should take a look at before doing any marginal things.
Alternatively any base geometry setups I could ponce?

Chassis spec-
R888 15”
Rear Arb
Spax coilovers
Caged welded
Camber wedges on back
15mm I think front spacers
Stock diff

Hi mate.
What toe front and rear are you running?

As a reference we are currently running 2.8 degrees front camber, 2.5 rear camber, 2mm toe out at front total (measured on a 15inch rim), and 3.5mm toe out total at the rear (measured on a 15inch rim). 90 n/mm front springs, 110 n/mm rear springs, rear arb stiff. 7 degrees (roughly) castor. And we run a decent amount of rake.

Biggest difference came from rear toe and rear springs for sorting under steer.

It’s all such a compromise between everything though. So please don’t take my word on anything. What works for one doesn’t work for another.

We tried softer front springs and thought they were awful where by others swear by them for example.

 

[Sir_Dave]

Ok, so try as I may with adapting driving style including left foot braking etc my 172 track cars week point is the bucket load of understeer I seem to face. So much so I’ve even resorted to trying to initiate lift off oversteer to get the thing in check.
Rear end feels almost perfect, even to planted if that’s even a thing.

save me a whole load of track time, is there any ‘big’ alterations I should take a look at before doing any marginal things.
Alternatively any base geometry setups I could ponce?

Chassis spec-
R888 15”
Rear Arb
Spax coilovers
Caged welded
Camber wedges on back
15mm I think front spacers
Stock diff

Being that no one else has mentioned it, i will. Have you had any tuition?

Being honest, a clio with 888's, coilovers and rear ARB set up correctly for a neutral to rear led bias, ie softer front, stiffer rear, more camber front, less camber rear, should not be understeering anywhere on track. Unless the settings/tyre pressures are incorrect, you should be able to pitch it in and essentially steer it on the throttle.

A technique difference, like trail braking into a corner and taking advantage of the weight transfer could quell understeer for example, especially if you are currently braking in a straight line, then turning into the corner.

Just a thought, not wishing to cause any offence.

 

[RallyXmad]

More negative front camber and neutral rear toe / toe out will help a great deal