Understeer Solutions?

[H4RRY]

I was over at Donington Park yesterday for a Trackday and it was wet most of the day. There were a few Clio's there but because of people popping along to see us and playing around with the car I never got chance to go and talk to anyone and see whether anyone had any tips to help us with our understeer. Our car turns in well but once you try and feed the power in then it is constantly trying to go straight on.

Now I know it was wet and greasy and you are never going to get the car to stick like you would in the dry but although we were by far not the slowest Clio on the day, we could simply not get anywhere near a couple of them. I'm sure there were better drivers behind the wheel than me but it was plain to see that they were not having to fight to get the car to go around the corner like we were. We have decent wet tyres (R1R's) and we have a good set of coilovers from Spax but can anyone shine some light on this magic ingredient. I know I'm probably dreaming thinking that there is a single ingredient but although the car is really coming alive with the coilovers and some R888's it just doesn't seem any better than standard in the wet. Does a LSD make that much difference? I have been looking at spacers? I know its a bit of an open question but basically has anyone found an improvement that makes a big difference to the understeer of the car especially in the wet?

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[Advikaz]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

Dony is a b*tch in the wet for a start mate.

 

[H4RRY]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

Yeah I've heard that and I'd just accept it if those Clio's weren't so much more planted than our car.

 

[Advikaz]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

It could be any number of things mate in all honest. Depends how sorted the other cars are, what rubber, what driver, what line etc.

 

[H4RRY]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

Yeah I know what your saying mate and like I said in my origional post I know its a bit of an open question and there is probably lots of answers but I just wondered whether people had found that a particular upgrade had made a big difference in the wet when it came to fighting the understeer. With regard to driving and lines, I'm sure they were better drivers than me, but I'm no beginner anymore and it was plain for all to see that they could just put the power down way before we could, they had something we didn't.

 

[MarkCup]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

This maybe worth a read through...went through most causes and most possible solutions...

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...ainst-Understeer&highlight=endless+understeer

 

[MG cup]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

LSD will only help under braking and corner exit.

Tyres were at the right pressure, suspension was on full soft?

Any videos? Were you trying to stay of the racing line, square the corners off?

 

[MG cup]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

Post a geo printout too?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

At the point you are feeding power back in coming out of a bend a decent diff would make a huge difference. (gripper even more so than quaiffe)

 

[Adam G]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

Donny has a couple of corners, where the fastest line isn't the obvious one. It could simply be tyre pressures or are you sure that they were similar power? Without seeing a vid of your driving or knowing the others' setups, you'll struggle to get a decent answer I think. Staying in a higher gear can often help too.

 

[...]

Re: Understeer Soltuions?

Without being sat beside you and knowing the setup its impossible to answer .... also unless like for like drivers and setups another car can be miles quicker and the wet can magnify that ..... an lsd makes a huge difference but can induce more understeer ..... and spax shocks I wouldnt say were good ... I bet on a wet day a standard setup with the right geo and the same tyres would be loads better

 

[H4RRY]

Thanks everyone for replies. I appreciate it is a bit of awkward question and I'm probably dreaming in thinking I might get a quick fix but I just wondered whether anyone had found magic upgrade.

We played about alot with the pressures, camber and alignment to try and improve it and we did make it better. We softened the suspension a bit, possibly not enough but a bit, and we still were no where near.

Again like I said I'm no expert but Donington is my local track (apart from Mallory but I'm not going to start another rant about stupid residents who bought a house next to a track and now don't like it when its noisy on a sunday morning) and I have a few tuition sessions round there so I know my way around. I haven't actually done to many wet days there so I'm sure its partly me but there were two Clio's that were so much faster than us that there needs to be something else we are missing.

Maybe they had an LSD and better setup and better drivers and that just equals alot faster.

 

[m4tt274]

Not much you can do to drastically alter it.
My saxo used to oversteer like a you know what so raised the front 10mm on some firmer springs and lowered the beam another notch so it was about 40mm front 60mm rear.
Improved it for sure, but not a huge amount.

You could try doing the reverse.

Also, daft one, but you do have matching tires all round right?

 

[...]

If I wanted a quick fix in the wet I would have softened the front right off ... upped pressures 15 psi and lobbed a load of toe out on while it was wet

 

[Tony Hunter]

I would have just raised the rear a little as a quick fix, you had good tyres on, but there are just too many variables to say in a quick sentence.

 

[BustaMOVEs]

Carrying enough speed into the corners? And feathering throttle until decent traction is made? Instead of wot out of a corner will equal under steer massively in the wet.
(we need a video if you have one)

 

[...]

I would have just raised the rear a little as a quick fix, you had good tyres on, but there are just too many variables to say in a quick sentence.

Quicker fix than mine .... thats for sure ...

I had forgotten he had coilovers although he did just say he had spax which could be either

 

[Tony Hunter]

Simple things first Harv.

 

[...]

True ..... add both our idwas and it would have been awesome in the right hands caster adjustment and adding some even better ......... or he could have done nothing and used the karting line

 

[Ryanph1rs]

Had this issue on mine firstly I set a rake stance about 60mm on front 40mm back this helped loads .... Then I bought Rsx coilovers and brand new top mounts and tbh the car now is probably the best handling thing I've ever drove I've also just bought a full set of powerflex bushes I'd also say tyre pressure I'm on 30psi front 28psi back

 

[H4RRY]

Thanks for points guys. I do have the rear slightly higher than the front but I haven't really tried playing about with it so I might give at a go next time. We were running a slight bit of toe out but although I've played about with it in the dry I haven't done much experimentation with it in the wet so I could try a little more.

We initially had our tires at about 30psi at running temp but lowered it to around 26. I usually find that is a good area for our dry tires but does that sound too low for wets?

Ryan, when you say 60mm and 40mm, what are you measuring?

i'll get a video up next time, always happy to get some tips on my driving but both of us who drove the car and watched the other Clios are convinced ours is missing something as well as talent

 

[Tony Hunter]

Just an example 2yrs ago when testing at Donny, lowering the back just 2 turns, meant the difference between going flat through Craner Curves or not.

 

[H4RRY]

Tony, do you mean when you lowered the back you could go flat through craners or when it was higher you could go flat through craners?

 

[Tony Hunter]

Lower. Its was too tail happy and scarey otherwise.

 

[H4RRY]

Oh rite, interesting, thanks. I'll guess I'll just have a bit more of a play about next time and see what happens. I just hope the conditions don't change as much so we can compare instead of changes happening to the car and the track at the same time.

What kind of pressure do you run in your wets? Is 26psi at running temp too low?

 

[Cup_Phil]

What geo settings are you running?

Adjusting camber and tow had a huge effect on mine

 

[H4RRY]

I don't really have a way of measuring camber but I tried reducing a lot on Sunday and that seemed to help but nothing drastic. I ran a slight bit of toe out but we just measure that with a bit of string from the back wheels so again I wouldn't think our measurements would mean anything to other people.

 

[Fred@BTM]

you reduced camber?

 

[H4RRY]

Yeah I tried reducing the camber as it got wetter thinking it might help. Does that sound like the wrong thing to do?

 

[sambk24]

pump the rear tyres until they are rock solid, then the rear would have less grip, which is makes it more likely to oversteer.

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah leave the camber alone, just reduce front tyre pressure and or increase the rear, and be way less aggressive with the car (normally always the problem)

 

[Yiannis197]

As everybody said there are loads of factors to be taken into consideration but in theory the things you can do to improve front grip - therefore tackle understeer - are;

1. Forward rake
2. Stiffen up the rear
3. Rear anti roll bar?
4. Negative (not too much though) camber at the front
5. Soften up the front

Just some ideas really...

Front toe out improves turn in but tbh I'm not sure if it affects understeer

 

[Fred@BTM]

clios LOVE negative camber -4deg and we're in the ball park!

 

[H4RRY]

Thanks guys, some good things to try. I normally end up with front and rear tires running same hot pressures and same suspension settings so I that sounds like something I can definitely improve.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Only do one thing at a time though, or you'll never find what sorts it.

 

[Matt@codered]

Only do one thing at a time though, or you'll never find what sorts it.

^^^......And mark everything up, so you can go back to where it was if it feels terrible.

 

[H4RRY]

Thanks guys, yeah that has always been our rule.

 

[Yiannis197]

Only do one thing at a time though, or you'll never find what sorts it.

^^^......And mark everything up, so you can go back to where it was if it feels terrible.

Some good advice here.

 

[Cup_Phil]

clios LOVE negative camber -4deg and we're in the ball park!

Yup. I had -2.75 camber on the car then decided feck it and went for -3.5... epic!

 

[Chip-mk1]

clios LOVE negative camber -4deg and we're in the ball park!

Agreed, Ive never managed to put too much onto any of ours, it does just seem like the more you can give the more they like it.