Usenet compared to torrents and how it works....

[cava83]

Hi,

Have always used torrents, just because I know my way around them and I find the comments rather useful. (for legal material....)

I fail to understand how usenet/newsgroups work, apart from obviously that is not peer to peer.

There are usenet websites such as newsdemon/giganews/astra and all of that, which you pay monthly for.

Some of these companies include SSL/unlimited downloads/no throttling and include X amount of data retention.

Then you have your indexing websites, some free, some you pay for.

Question 1) I thought that if I am using newsdemon, then I am downloading from their servers but then I am using an indexing website that would be indexing from any other provider, so how does my "client" limit what I can download (say if I am capped at 50GB) and in theory, could I just not use the cheapest usenet company and use any other indexing website to find the data I want?

Question 2) If using SSL, why do I need a VPN service too?

Question 3) Why aren't there so many comments like on torrents? I have downloaded some material which isn't what I am expecting or not to the level I want.

Any clarification kindly appreciated.

G.

 

[ChrisR]

I thought that if I am using newsdemon, then I am downloading from their servers but then I am using an indexing website that would be indexing from any other provider

Remember Usenet is one big distributed network with each news provider holding their own copy of everything.

An indexing website doesn't index based on provider, it indexes based on the articles location within usenet, which will be the same whichever provider you are using.

Think of it like a web link, to open this thread you would go to http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...rrents-and-how-it-works&p=9521135#post9521135, but you need an ISP to be able to get onto the internet to do so.

The link would be the same whichever ISP you used, but as your ISP they can enact things like limits etc on you.

Same for Usenet, you have an account with a provider and they control your access to things.


As for SSL and VPN, SSL will encrypt the traffic between you and your provider, but the fact that you are connecting to it from your IP can still be seen. So the content of the connection can't be seen, but other details like time, destination/source IPs and amount of traffic can be seen.

A VPN would go some way to obfuscate that as it's the VPN's IP that connects to the news servers not your own.

 

[The Fatty]

Question 1) I thought that if I am using newsdemon, then I am downloading from their servers but then I am using an indexing website that would be indexing from any other provider, so how does my "client" limit what I can download (say if I am capped at 50GB) and in theory, could I just not use the cheapest usenet company and use any other indexing website to find the data I want?

Question 2) If using SSL, why do I need a VPN service too?

Question 3) Why aren't there so many comments like on torrents? I have downloaded some material which isn't what I am expecting or not to the level I want.


G.

1. Indexing is just to get a list of files to download, which are normally binaries that are split into multiple file with repair files called par files. these files exist on multiple usenet servers. You download everything from your usenet provider and your provider only. Just because you have found a index of the files from a third party website does not mean the files will be available on your usenet server.

2. if your using ssl, then the actual data you are transferring is encrypted, but not the fact that you are connecting to the usenet service. if you use a VPN or not is up to your security needs.

3. traceability.

Usenet, although a very old and very good system, has become a bit of a minefield for very illegal things and I would advise anyone thinking of using it to avoid it along with torrent sites. If you after legal things, chances are they will be hosted on the publishers website or on a website like download.com

 

[cava83]

Chris, thank you very much. So if the usenet provider is like the ISP, why do the prices flactuate so much even though potentially accessing the same information?

 

[The Fatty]

Chris, thank you very much. So if the usenet provider is like the ISP, why do the prices flactuate so much even though potentially accessing the same information?

because your not accessing the same information. Some will have longer retentions and have a lot more available. A usenet provider is not like an ISP, an ISP allows you to access everything on the web. Usenet allows you to access stuff on there server only.

 

[ChrisR]

I used the ISP analogy just to try to get the point across that the 'link'/location of the data is the same whether it's sat on one news server or another, and hence the indexing service doesn't give a rats ass what provider you're using (like an URL), but that you need an account with a provider to be able to access it (like an ISP).

Just trying to find a way to explain it a little more simply

 

[The Fatty]

I used the ISP analogy just to try to get the point across that the 'link'/location of the data is the same whether it's sat on one news server or another, and hence the indexing service doesn't give a rats ass what provider you're using.

Just trying to find a way to explain it a little more simply

yeah I realised that's what you were doing, but not sure cava did

 

[ChrisR]

You're right in that what you can access does depend on the provider, and then as you say there's all the stuff about retention etc as well.

Although most of them are much of a muchness for what most people want to use them for.

 

[cava83]

Lol I understood the analogy, just don't understand how it works. Guess i am trying to think of it too technically. If all usenet providers does is store a copy of "usenet data" then should not every own usenet provider such as newsdemon have it's own indexing tool, to search it's own copies? Because as stated, if you're looking at an indexing tool, you might be able to download x but your usenet provider might not have it.

thanks guys

 

[The Fatty]

its so simple; the Usenet provider is basically allowing you metered access to their server farm built up of storage servers with data on them. Data is uploaded by users and is sometimes mirrored to other usenet provider servers. Sometimes data is copied between server farms but not always. Files are only help on the servers for a given period, so people have to keep uploading files to keep them alive. Files are indexed on index websites, which make it easier to download the data from the usenet provider, providing the data is on there server. A German provider will be full of German things as Germans will be using it more, where as an American server will be full of American things.

 

[cava83]

its so simple; the Usenet provider is basically allowing you metered access to their server farm built up of storage servers with data on them. Data is uploaded by users and is sometimes mirrored to other usenet provider servers. Sometimes data is copied between server farms but not always. Files are only help on the servers for a given period, so people have to keep uploading files to keep them alive. Files are indexed on index websites, which make it easier to download the data from the usenet provider, providing the data is on there server. A German provider will be full of German things as Germans will be using it more, where as an American server will be full of American things.

I understand regarding meterage, storage servers, uploading data, storage of files.

Index websites is where I get confused.

If I use newsdemon and I use a newsdemon index website, then I understand how the meterage works and all of that.

If I use newsdemon and I use a generic indexing website, that website will grab index not only from newsdemon but other usenet providers.

So if I look for something specific on a generic indexing website and newsdemon doesn't store it, or only a percentage of it, then I won't be able to download it, but because the indexing website doesn't know what usenet provider I am using, how can it taylor my results pending on what provider I use, because obviously it might provide me stuff I cannot get?

Does that make sense? I hope you see where I am coming from.

Once I get past this hurdle, I think I will be fine, apart from the lack of comments on products. I guess I will need to pay for an indexing website which offers a better service, but I am going from a free service (torrents) to something that is going to jump up in cost i.e usenet provider + VPN service + indexing provider.

 

[The Fatty]

So if I look for something specific on a generic indexing website and newsdemon doesn't store it, or only a percentage of it, then I won't be able to download it, but because the indexing website doesn't know what usenet provider I am using, how can it taylor my results pending on what provider I use, because obviously it might provide me stuff I cannot get?

It cant. Its trial and error.

 

[cava83]

It cant. Its trial and error.

See, the issue I have with this is, whilst I am testing this out, I have downloaded something which is in the wrong language, even though it's titled as the right language. That is 6GB wasted. If it had comments, this could have been avoided

Which indexing website do you use? I might just be using the wrong one.

 

[The Fatty]

I don't. As I said, its an illegal playground that I don't want to be involved in now. When I did use it (and when it was a much more legit service), I used the usenext service as it was by far the easiest to use.

 

[cava83]

I don't. As I said, its an illegal playground that I don't want to be involved in now. When I did use it (and when it was a much more legit service), I used the usenext service as it was by far the easiest to use.

oh yes, apologies. Thank you very much for the info, very helpful.

 

[Munson]

Usenet has recently become increasingly difficult to use if indexing sites are your way of doing things. There's always an alternative, but the quality of nzb files can often be very questionable unless you know where to look.

There's always the option to search for raw files inside your reader. Usenet will never die. Long live usenet!

FYI I always operate inside a 256bit encrypted OpenVPN with NAT firewall. Currently located in Moscow lol.

 

[cava83]

Usenet has recently become increasingly difficult to use if indexing sites are your way of doing things. There's always an alternative, but the quality of nzb files can often be very questionable unless you know where to look.

There's always the option to search for raw files inside your reader. Usenet will never die. Long live usenet!

FYI I always operate inside a 256bit encrypted OpenVPN with NAT firewall. Currently located in Moscow lol.

Roy, can you educate me? I'll send you a crate of beer for your troubles. Won't take long, I'm a quick learner

 

[Munson]

What do you want to know specifically? I'm not posting links. It only feeds Google.

 

[cava83]

Roy,

Thanks for the reply. That is fine, would not want you to post links

Just want to make sure I am doing things the right way.

How can we converse further on this?

Thanks,

G.
​

 

[Keydogg]

I used to love newsgroups when NZBMatrix was alive because you could use the comments to judge a) the quality and b) missing parts, bad files etc.

Now I find it very difficult to get consistent downloads and often find myself downloading something 2-3 times before I get the correct quality and/or a full download. I think I might quit newsgroups, unless I find a better way to utilise them.

 

[cava83]

I used to love newsgroups when NZBMatrix was alive because you could use the comments to judge a) the quality and b) missing parts, bad files etc.

Now I find it very difficult to get consistent downloads and often find myself downloading something 2-3 times before I get the correct quality and/or a full download. I think I might quit newsgroups, unless I find a better way to utilise them.

See this is the issue. My colleague uses it and he was getting chinese subtitles and all of that, when he only required information in English.

Some people are saying use a VPN service with Torrents, but then I presume they are saying that because of the legalities.

The issue I have is, that the speed on Usenet was superb, compared to torrents, apart from the accuracy of the data too.

 

[The Boosh!]

Griff wrote this a while ago. Not sure if it's still relevant though, as it is pretty old...

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?102541-Newsgroups-Tutorial

 

[The Fatty]

So your complaining because you cant download your pirated media without subtitles the first time around? :S Why don't you just subscribe to a service that provides streaming of the media you want legally? Failing that, like I said before, use 'Usenext' - no piss balling around with index sites etc as its all built into there self made client. They used to offer a free trial as well.

 

[cava83]

So your complaining because you cant download your pirated media without subtitles the first time around? :S Why don't you just subscribe to a service that provides streaming of the media you want legally? Failing that, like I said before, use 'Usenext' - no piss balling around with index sites etc as its all built into there self made client. They used to offer a free trial as well.

If you read my post properly it says my colleague I could not care less about pirated media.

I use NetFlix & Lovefilm for my films, both crap but does me fine.