VAG Gearbox Conversion

[Michael Woodford MST]

Anyone know anything about a VAG gearbox conversion for the 172.

Ive heard its been done a couple of times now. Does anyone offer a kit?

Cheers

 

[Tutuur]

There is no kit available but it has been done so it is possible.
I have some information from Scoff and Felix. Would be nice to sum it al up in 1 topic but i'd like to get permission from Scoff first as he is the one who discovered/developed it.

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

Yer man, that would be great.

 

[Gray]

Speak to Scoff at EFI-Parts, I believe he has done the conversion

http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php

 

[Tutuur]

Would be a bit irritating if he has to tell everyone exactly how it needs to be done.
Maybe he could shine a light here

 

[Ralphizzle]

A VAG conv.?

6-spd in a 172!

 

[Dan1587]

A VAG conv.?

6-spd in a 172!

Good idea 6speed in a 172 but what box would they use as surely all the ratios would be different?


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=50.858752,-3.392163

 

[coxxy]

i think a few would be interested in this, i know i would!!

 

[Mark One]

afaik the 6 speed has a longer end and won't quite fit inbetween the chassis legs. the 5 speed O2J is strong

 

[Tutuur]

It will as Scoff and Felix use the 6sp 02m.

 

[Mark One]

It will as Scoff and Felix use the 6sp 02m.

I stand corrected! It won't fit with a 1.8T on the side of it then!

 

[Tutuur]

That's right. Need to cut some of the subframe as i've seen on here

 

[mwn11]

If a trader offered this at a reasonable price i think it would hit off well.

Just as renault boxes are chocolate.

What would the price be for the conversion?

 

[Jaff.]

im currently doing this (6speed) with an F7R in my megane mk1

massive help from scoff who is a genious

and it will fit on the side of an F4/F7 in the bay because its a 3 shaft box so its fatter not wider. issues in a clio are subframe iirc

the last post in this blog shows how much clearance there is in a megane bay...

issues that will also crop up is the hydraulic clutch and the gear selector.

 

[tom172cup]

Is there aymore info on this coversion seriously wanting to change my box now

 

[Scoff]

Hi Guys

6sp 02M is the way to go for really big power. The 5sp 02J is a good unit too, vastly stronger than the JC but with less than fantastic synchomesh. I had several incarnations of 02J in my car and all were horribly slow to shift at high rpm. 02M is a lot better but still not as good as the "stick in a bucket" JC ! But, it's worlds stronger, so I live with it. It's a more modern, notchy shift compared to the more vague selection of the Renault.

Offering a complete kit is hard since the sort of person who might want a kit will invariably have a modified car, with things in different places, variables to overcome.

A basic kit might be doable if there was some interest. That might include:

- Block to bellhousing adaptor plate
- Crank hub adaptor
- Modified billet steel 240mm VW fitment flywheel (or 228mm for 02J users) to suit Renault F crank pattern

You would need to dream up your own gearbox mounts, fit a VW cable shift, make driveshafts, buy a VW clutch and starter motor, etc.

I would go as far as offering a conversion to people who already have (or would like to have) standalone engine management and who are not scared of loosing their OE gearbox speed signal (where applicable). I say standalone because it would be very difficult to re-create the 60 tooth trigger pattern that the Renault flywheel has. Instead people will need to use a trigger wheel on the crank pulley, etc.

Seriously interested people are welcome to contact me of course. Be warned though, emails beginning "Hi m8, I'm thinkin of buyin.." will not precipitate a response

Chris

 

[BIGASH]

Be warned though, emails beginning "Hi m8, I'm thinkin of buyin.." will not precipitate a response

Haha well said

 

[Tutuur]

I already sent Chris an email but maybe we could make a list here to keep things clear:

1. Tutuur (228mm flywheel)
2. Dhayrone (not decided yet)
3.

 

[Jaff.]

i need to find out what box i have. anyone know what an 52 reg seat leon cupra had?

this would save me a lot of work if it was done

1. Tutuur (228mm flywheel)
2. Dhayrone (not decided yet)
3. Jaffman

 

[Fred@BTM]

why not have a custom flywheel made? TTV will do it no problem

 

[Tutuur]

Depends on the price

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

If someone has some sort of plans, And a number that need making i could get a price.

 

[richard691]

1. Tutuur (228mm flywheel)
2. Dhayrone (not decided yet)
3. Jaffman
4. richard691 (depending on price)

 

[Tutuur]

@michael
Would be exactly the vag flywheel only then with renault bolt spacing and 17mm more offset to block.
Center hole would have an other diameter too.

If this can be done it'll rule out the welding+ redrilling the vw flywheel and also the spacer needed between crank and flywheel

Maybe Scoff could shine a light on this but this is as far as i know..

 

[Scoff]

Thanks for the interest guys. I don't ever expect that there will be a big demand for this conversion but as more and more people push the limits with their tune they will need to re consider their choice of gearbox !

As a guide, for a one off price I could offer the following for 1k:

Block to bellhousing adaptor plate and mounting hardware,
Modified billet steel SPEC 228mm (02J) or 240mm (02M) light weight flywheel and upgrade bolts,
Crank hub centric adapter,
Assembly of some driveshafts providing 2x good VW and 2x good Clio shafts supplied.

I could go further and offer mounts too but I would need an initial customer who wanted me to do a conversion to get the ball rolling. For that person I would be prepared to do the work at a reduced rate since the templates and jigs I make will help me in the future. Candidates should already be running standalone engine management because it will be much harder to re use the OE once the Renault flywheel is ditched.

Contact me at chris@efi-parts.co.uk if you are seriously interested.

Cheers, Chris

 

[Tutuur]

With the driveshafts you mean the complete package (so both ball joints provided and welded together?)
In that case we should give a length as for the same reason why mounts would be a bit hard i reckon. As i'm running a gtt, dhayrone a willie and the rest from here RS'es

Also you shouldn't forget to mention: will this be with 10mm 12.9 bolts as u told me?
So the crank threads need to be drilled and re threaded

 

[Scoff]

Yes thats right Tutuur, I was just keeping it brief.

Driveshaft lengths well need specifying (easy enough to measure one the gearbox is installed - shafts can be done last)

Flywheel threads in crank need re tapping to M10x1.25.

Chris

 

[Jaff.]

hi scoff,

intrested in this package your doing still. just a few questions i have regarding the flywheel and hubcentric spacer, why will the crank need re tapping? will the bolts be going through the flywheel through the spacer then into the crank or will the spacer be bolted to the crank then the flywheel to the spacer?
im happy to get the ball rolling to get the first one done along with tutuur and get it all mounted up to an engine so i can get some mounts made and at least get it in my car to measure it up for some driveshafts.

anyone know which box a 2003 leon cupra has? its the 6 speed but i cant make out the markings on the box.

are you able to supply a trigger wheel in that price as the renault crank sensor & flywheel is no longer uselfull?

will email you now also

cheers

 

[Tutuur]

this page gives you almost al VAG gearboxes (almost at the bottom are the 02m's):
http://www.clubgti.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-115595.html

i bought myself a fmn from a 2003 s3. this one is not in the list but ratio's won't be far of from the older dqb s3 gearbox.
would need longer final drive for turbo use tbh. (diesel is mental!)
the box is for quattro but going to buy myself an eliminator kit for the transfer box.

trigger wheel would be interesting as i'm willing to use oe management but if it isn't possible it just isn't and i'm going standalone
i won't be supplying a car i think cause my gtt is sitting in the Netherlands

would be more interesting to use your RS? i will have to make custom mounts myself i think also using bottom mounted F7R btw

chris snapped the 9mm bolts off. but ofcourse he is running more than 600hp and uses an on off clutch :rasp:
i don't like the idea off drilling my crank because the whole engine is already completely built, but it's better to be done once and good than not good and to strip the whole crap again!

 

[Jaff.]

this page gives you almost al VAG gearboxes (almost at the bottom are the 02m's):
http://www.clubgti.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-115595.html

i bought myself a fmn from a 2003 s3. this one is not in the list but ratio's won't be far of from the older dqb s3 gearbox.
would need longer final drive for turbo use tbh. (diesel is mental!)
the box is for quattro but going to buy myself an eliminator kit for the transfer box.

trigger wheel would be interesting as i'm willing to use oe management but if it isn't possible it just isn't and i'm going standalone
i won't be supplying a car i think cause my gtt is sitting in the Netherlands

would be more interesting to use your RS? i will have to make custom mounts myself i think also using bottom mounted F7R btw

chris snapped the 9mm bolts off. but ofcourse he is running more than 600hp and uses an on off clutch :rasp:
i don't like the idea off drilling my crank because the whole engine is already completely built, but it's better to be done once and good than not good and to strip the whole crap again!

you could struggle with OE managment with an aftermarket trigger wheel because you cant use the standard renault trigger on the flywheel. im not an expert on that though you will need some more info from someone who knws clio managment. i would sugest getting standalone anyway if your turboing. if your going to do it, do it properly

im not putting it in an RS its going in a mk1 megane coupe so my mounts will be custom and diffrent from a potential clio mount also. my F7R is top mounted not bottom so there is a bit of diffrence there.

im in the same boat with the crank, engine has been built and run in so taking the crnak out will be a shame but needs must!

 

[Tutuur]

well, maybe it's possible to dril with the sump off so you can take away excessive metal from drilling or tapping?

maybe i could give Henk (fastchip) a call on the possibillities of the OE ecu...
otherwise we could satisfy Chris by also buying some adaptronic from him

edit: side gearbox mount won't be that hard i think as the 02m also has bolt holes on top like the JC's do, thrust/rear mount will be some more struggle but i don't think mounts will be the hardest part.

the adaptors need to be 100% right otherwise you're going to burn the clutch. fortunate for us Chris already has one so he could copy his own i think

 

[Jaff.]

only thing im worried about with the plate is if its rotated enough to fit in my engine bay as i dont know how diffrent it is to the R5 bay

the sump is off already so that would be easier but it may be worth it to just rip the crank out

 

[Tutuur]

Chris had to tilt the complete engine with gb a bit forward so the bigger diff housing wouldn't hit the steering rack.
Maybe its possible to fabricate the plate a bit more tilted? (depends on where the bolt holes are)

But further i wouldn't worry if i where you. F7r fits al the older Renaults and the engine bay of the 5 is the smallest!

 

[Jaff.]

yeah i still have the issue with the rack being close at the back.

want to avoid tilting the engine and box ideally

 

[Scoff]

A short update for you guys.

I've started talking to 2 places about having the flywheels done on CNC to my specification. It might save time in obtaining and machining them and may (hopefully) make things a little cheaper too.

There have been a couple of interested parties so far, thankyou to those for your input, I will keep you both (and whoever else may be interested) up to date. I am looking forward to fitting this lot to a Clio some time soon so that I can make the neccessary jigs to re-produce this kit for guys who want to do the conversion themselves.

Cheers all,

Chris

 

[Jaff.]

good news mate!

will get in touch with you on friday to pay for at least the adaptor plate for the time being

 

[Tutuur]

What would the price be for just the adaptor plate?
My gearbox arrives tomorrow and already have a f7 to trial fit

Oh and would cnc'ing the flywheel rule out the spacer? Maybe it's pssible for us to use the original bolts then!

 

[Scoff]

Hi Tutuur,

Yes that's the idea. I'd still recommend upgrading to 10mm flywheel bolts, I could sheer the M9's with only 450hp. But I dare say they will be fine for most jobs. The flywheel should be able to accept standard 9mm Renault bolts.

I've spoken to them today about the possibility of having the Renault trigger pattern machined in to the outer edge alongside the ring gear. This, with a sensor mounting in the bellhousing should mean that keeping standard engine management is possible. Lack of speed sensor from the gearbox might be more of a problem though and is something that needs thinking about if you're dead set on keeping the OE EMS.

Regards adaptor plates on their own, I hadn't priced things individually, I'll look at that early next week once I've finalised details with the engineers.

Cheers, Chris

 

[Hutchie]

after 2003 most car pickup speed from the abs system

 

[Tutuur]

only problem is the 5gtt is from '85

would be very nice Chris! maybe it wouldn't be the most easy way but for people with Clio Sports 2003 and up will have the complete conversion.
maybe it's possible to use the original speedo from the gtt (electronic) and somehow convert the abs signal.. i'm using RS hubs so will have a option to fit the sensor.

you run yours true the management Chris? as said: when it turns out to be to hard i will just go the standalone route

will it be possible to drill and tap the crank safely when in place? better to do it good in one time!