Valver vs williams vs 172

[adiclio16v]

people come on here sayin that theyve had races with this an that, but nobody ever says i went out and caned a valver today cos theres no point

but i was just wonderin how the cars compared to each other is a 172 much better than a williams for example

whats your thoughts guys an gals

 

[Nick Read]

Well Ive been in all three and its pretty straightforward - the Valver is a great hot hatch, handles lovely, enough poke to make it fun, but needs thrashing to make it come alive. Williams just has that extra grunt to make it easier to drive and quicker out of the box. 172 quicker than both and seems to be even easier to drive fast. Plus all the toys and plenty of room for bottles of water, suits under the parcel shelf etc.

 

[Ben j]

valvers the original and therefore best!

and i never get to go against a willy , valver or 172.. have raced an rsi, and whooped it though

 

[night.icon]

i have to admit i have to work my valver hard buy using the gears but a blinding car when driven the right way

 

[2 live]

haha .... 172 quicker than both lol
i mustve just been racing the slowest ones then lol
the willy ROCKS ....even in standard trim
but like nick said the willy s low down grunt makes it a hell of a lot easier to drive it faster than my old valver and a lot safer too hehe
jon

 

[Ben j]

whats the weight on em all? is the valver the lightest?

 

[night.icon]

16 valve
Kerb vehicle weight 980 kgs
Gross vehicle weight 1410 kgs

Willy
Kerb vehicle weight 990 kgs
Gross vehicle weight 1410 kgs

MK1 - 172
Kerb vehicle weight 1035 kgs
Gross vehicle weight 1490 kgs

Mk2 - 172
Kerb vehicle weight 1035 kgs
Gross vehicle weight 1490 kgs


Clio cup
Kerb vehicle weight 1021 kgs
Gross vehicle weight 1346 kgs

and finally the heavy weight

V6
Kerb vehicle weight 1335 kgs
Gross vehicle weight 1545 kgs

 

[Ben H]

I think that theres obvious truth in the whole Williams as an icon thing - but there werent exactly a load of homologation special hot hatches around back in 1993-1995!

Ive raced a Williams and numerous 172s in my non-standard 16v. The Williams is better placed to take up the challenge, but when the 16v gets above 4500rpm theres very little in it (and certainly less than the hype would lead you to believe). Sadly, that means in the 16v that if you see a gap to overtake at the last minute, the chance could be gone by the time you change down a cog or two - thats where the Willy is better.

The closest match Ive ever come up against was a Mk1 172. We both went for it off the Severn Bridge tolls and were totally, totally neck and neck to the ton - when we stopped and slowed down. The strangest thing about the 172 is that it seems to be a lot slower than my 16v between 90-110 mph - what speed does the limit in 4th come at in a 172; its about 110-115 in a 16v.

 

[Simon172]

before i had my group n ecu i could take 4th gear all the way to 120 mph at 7200 rpm, now it goes to about 130 in 4th at something like 7800 rpm on the guage. I raced a modded 16v and it was quite a struggle in 1st and 2nd, but once i was in 3rd it was easy to get past.

Why, in the adverts does it say that the Clio Cup is 89 kg lighter than the 172? if that is true, that would make the mk.2 normal 172 1110 kg. My mk.1 172 is 1035 kg according to the instruction manual i got with it.

 

[Craggy]

i must have too jon!

 

[adiclio16v]

until i can afford a 172 what mods would i have to get to keep up with a willy/172

and what power would it be making then cos id be well happy with that

the 172 is a really quick car and if most of your 172,s are doin 60 in the mid 6s im not goin to be beaten buy a lot of things

 

[Ben H]

Youll find with a 16v that its expensive to get real power - since the only options are turbo/superchrger and/or nitrous, and head and cam work. From there youve also got boring out to higher capacity and playing with ECUs. But none of this is cheap.

The 16v is a fapping quick car anyway, so you might as well just keep it serviced and well loved - and that will prepare you better for an encounter with a 172 than anything else. There isnt that much in it in a straight line between the 172/16v/Williams trio - one second to 60 at the most (which is still two cars though). But the 16v is a lot less flexible than the other two. Either keep in the power band or get your torque at lower revs with the very expensive mods as detailed above.

 

[adiclio16v]

id love a low boost turbo just for the noise more than anything else

but until i have more money i might just get a 25-50bhp shot of nitrous that wont put a lot of strain on the engine

it would b nice to just have that bit extra if i come up against summat faster

 

[Ben H]

I have that something extra

 

[Captain Slarty]

Just a point.. what is a low boost turbo ??..

Joe

 

[ReNWiLL]

Williams is the King.

In my quest for a newer car after the sale of my last one, I drove a few valvers, a 172 and a few Willys. I could have scraped up enough to buy a new 172 at that time but in my opinion they are an ugly duckling. Yes lots of power but ugly. The Valver, Nice, good car but to get it to touch a Williams you have to spend loads of money, then insurance goes up too so you may as well buy a Willy in the 1st place. Then if you spend as much as you would making a 16v faster on the Williams, think how much more power you will have.
I am not slating the Valver, they are good fast cars, but in my opinion, they are not and never will be a Williams. With a Williams you get it all in one easy package.
This IS an objective view, as I said before in this and many threads of this ilk......at the time of buying my Willy2 I could have had and test drove the whole clio sports range, so its not Just coz I own one.

Bill.

 

[adiclio16v]

joe. a turbo only running low boost pressure like around 6psi ish

so theres less strenghthening work to be done and less chance of bits of engine trying to make a break for freedom out of the bonnet

i dont think id want to go the route of forged pistons an all that without havin a lot more technical knowledge like u mate

unless u wanna do a big ass turbo conv for me, you can start whenever

 

[Captain Slarty]

That can often be worse m8..

low boost often means standard compression ratio.. meaing a sever balancing act between performance and detonation...

if ya gonna go that route.. go for all of it.. or stay clear.... seriously.. a recipe for disaster.

Joe.

 

[Nick Read]

lol Jon even as I was writing my message I knew you were gonna say that about 172s! What I mean is apart from freak Willys like yours and Craggys, I cant think of any standard cars that would keep with a 172, they just seem a lot easier to drive fast. Just put your foot down and go and thats all there is to it.

 

[Ben H]

RenWill -

Willy is a fantastic car - and deserves its iconic and future classic status. But theres not *that* (these stars are great arent they Nick?!) much difference between the 16v and its special edition brother. At the end of the day it has 13bhp more, torque lower down and slightly different suspension settings.

What Im saying is that you can make up *most* of the difference with a few mods to a 16v - which you cant do with an RSi to a 16v for example. The extra track for example on the Willy is just by adding wider wheels. But youll be spending money like theres no tomorrow beyond that - and yes youd be better off just getting a Willy in the 1st place if youre trying to make a Williams out of your 16v.

I think its a bit more acceptable to mod a 16v anyway - as, like I say, the Willy is a special edition of the 16v with all youd ever want doing (apart from 200bhp more) already done.

I think that as you go on in time you learn that the moding is cheaper and often better left to the manufacturer. Hence you get the M3 CSL instead of the "boggo" M3.

But dont forget that the base car such as the M3 - or Clio 16v - give most of the flash and bones in the first place.

 

[2 live]

he he u no me nick lol
but heres a brief rundown of same mods 1/4 mile times for 16v/willy/172
16v (my old 1) k&n 57i with powerflow de-cat n full system.......15.986 (cant remember mph)
willy (my current car) k&n panel with devil de-cat n powerflow full system........14.800 @92 mph(time with de-cat not rest of zorst)
172 (1 iv raced twice) ....15.083 @88.7 mph
as u can see theres only a slight difrence between the three, just over a second covering all. altho iv never driven a 172 so cant comment (hehe) the valver does have some advantages over the willy on the strip, especially in the gearbox/final drive dept. lol
where just clearing the line in 3rd gear in the valver, ur having to hit 4th in the willy some way off the finish line..possibly shaving 1/2 sec off the time
cheers
jon

 

[2 live]

and forgive me if im wrong but the wider track etc also has to do with the fitting of reno 19 bottom arms and also has thicker and stiffer anti-roll bars and torsion bars
cheers
jon

 

[telford_mike]

Nick youre right about the 172 - point & shoot, & any mug (even me) can drive it. But i have to agree about the Williams being an icon - Id have loved to have been able to afford one a few years ago when they were introduced; I think one mag said Renault should be congratulated for having the balls to do this!! Id still love to have one now. Modding the 172 still seems to be in its infancy, Im content to wait for the science to evolve. See you all at York for a good thrash though!

 

[2 live]

look at the dates lol

 

[Winston]

I love my valvers pace but am sick of ragging the sh*te out of it to keep up with my m8 in his G40. I used to think the valver was fast till he got a G40. So now the valvers getting a willy 2.0 and it has a willy wide track already. I love the williams but didnt want to mod one and wreck it. they should just be left alone and have engine mods. I never driven or raced a 172 so dont no what there like. Do they handle as well a williams?

 

[u33db]

They grip more but the handling isnt as flexible IMO.

 

[Ben j]

ancient post

 

[Ben H]

Ive owned a Williams since these old posts (two years ago!), when I had a Valver. In retrospect, I think most of my observations were right.

The thing I was missing - and I think most people still miss - is that a car like the Williams isnt only about straight line speed. I still think my old Willy was the gold standard, double cream of hot hatches and I miss it like crazy. All those cold mornings on Welsh B-roads... brings a tear to my eye. Times gone by eh... ah well.

I also miss my Valver, but peculiarly my Fiat Coupe 20VT feels like similar car (in that it looks and sounds lush, but costs me loads to run). Sounds silly, but I think cars have personalities - and the Coup and 16V are definitely part of the same family!

Clio Williams - best hot hatch ever. You are sadly missed.

 

[Adams_16v]

everyone knows willy engined valvers are the best

 

[Snufty]

I second that willy engined valvers are the best.

Mine would be the best if it wasnt for his^^^^ LOL

 

[Martin]

Quote: Originally posted by Snufty on 08 September 2004


I second that willy engined valvers are the best.

Mine would be the best if it wasnt for his^^^^ LOL

Adis got a 14.2 without nos I believe, so your 3rd now! lol

Oh and Ill be doing low 14s in the very near future....oh and Williams can corner too!

 

[Paul_P1]

Captain Slarty - Theres a blast from the past!

 

[Snufty]

Thats not good at all for me but mine isnt cammed.

I will get near to these time soon i hope when i next get down to pod

 

[Daz.]

Quote: Originally posted by Martin. on 08 September 2004

Quote: Originally posted by Snufty on 08 September 2004


I second that willy engined valvers are the best.

Mine would be the best if it wasnt for his^^^^ LOL

Adis got a 14.2 without nos I believe, so your 3rd now! lol

Oh and Ill be doing low 14s in the very near future....oh and Williams can corner too!

Id have a williams anyday if they came in naples - but oh they dont thats not the point of them! so im just going to willy my valver track and engine..



Can I make a suggestion in that if you use standard renault parts upgrading a valver does it therefore have to be classed as modded? vague I know but its not like your third party mods these mods are all from the same shop in thas motherland!

 

[2 live]

Quote: Originally posted by Martin. on 08 September 2004

Quote: Originally posted by Snufty on 08 September 2004


I second that willy engined valvers are the best.

Mine would be the best if it wasnt for his^^^^ LOL

Adis got a 14.2 without nos I belieeve, so your 3rd now! lol

Oh and Ill be doing low 14s in the very near future....oh and Williams can corner too!






and mehdis old black un used to run 14.2s as well.....but they were all chipped i think......personally i reckon i wouldnt have been far off them if id had mine chipped as well lol

as for williams...........the only ones i know are my 2........

willy 1 14.0

willy 2 14.8.....wudda bin quicker but craggy was drivin,hehe, an it had a hill power chip..was faster wen the ecu was returned to std

reckon we should get a list up of wot evryones run in their willys................gunna start new post now lol



[Edited by 2 live on 10 September 2004 at 5:12pm]