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VVT Kicks in early??



  RB FF 182
Hi guys,

I understand that the Variable Valve Timing is meant to kick in at about 5k??? Mine kicks in at 4k (noticeable power difference, and revs increase faster)... Whilst I don't think this is a bad thing, is this a sign of anything to worry about?

Or could it just simply mean someone's had it re-mapped at some point??

Cheers!
 
  Listerine & Poledo
yeah, unlike V-Tec, I am led to believe that the Renault fancy-timing system is always adjusting tiself.
 
  Sprint 172
It's a crude emissions control system (not a fancy Honda VTEC!). Operates at 1900rpm. What you are feeling is the engine reaching 'optimum' performance and/or overcoming a slight torque dip.
 
  RB FF 182
Cool cool!!

Finally had the chance to give it some today. Remembered why I bought it!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  ITB'd MK1
It's a crude emissions control system (not a fancy Honda VTEC!). Operates at 1900rpm. What you are feeling is the engine reaching 'optimum' performance and/or overcoming a slight torque dip.

yes, sort of. it's more to do with emmisions regulations again really. No/little acceleration fuel at lower revs, which the engine wants but isn't being allowed.

A good remap can smooth this out very nicely
 
  RB FF 182
Meh!!

I kinda like it how it is, just seen loads of topics about "5k Kick" and mines at 4... lol just wanted to check all was well.

Most the time I'm rolling around at 2k - 3k anyway because I work in a town.

I'm going to look into getting an RS Tuner over Christmas as I'd like a smoother idle.

Cheers for the info though guys.
 
  ITB'd MK1
Have people been telling me fibs

well i dont know exactly what you've been told, but there's a lot of different versions of what's happening going round. The fact making adjustments to fueling can smooth it out (making improvements at lower RPM) should speak volumes
 
  Fiesta ST Stage 3
I was told that the 5k kick was the engine coming on cam ???


well i dont know exactly what you've been told, but there's a lot of different versions of what's happening going round. The fact making adjustments to fueling can smooth it out (making improvements at lower RPM) should speak volumes
 
  ITB'd MK1
no, that's not true. Any cam profile will have a point in the revs where the VE is improved, but the stock setup is not wild enough to have that kind of sudden difference. Like i said, it maps out
 
  Fiesta ST Stage 3
What gives the sold called kick @ 5k rpm then ??? Just so i no


no, that's not true. Any cam profile will have a point in the revs where the VE is improved, but the stock setup is not wild enough to have that kind of sudden difference. Like i said, it maps out
 
  ITB'd MK1
it's more to do with emmisions regulations again really. No/little acceleration fuel at lower revs, which the engine wants but isn't being allowed.

A good remap can smooth this out very nicely

What gives the sold called kick @ 5k rpm then ??? Just so i no

;)

the engine is kept leaner by a lack of acceleration fuel at lower revs. When the engine is given some accel fuel, it gains a lot of urgency (for want of a better way to describe it)
 
I'll be more helpful and try and explain the 5k kick.

By no means is the 5k kick the result of any mechanical/electronic chance withing the engine system, whether that be mapping paremeters or valve timing.

I think to fully understand, a base understanding of the operating system of the vvt is needed. The vvt system employed on the clio is what we refer to as cam phasing, this is where the whole camshaft (inlet or exhaust or both) is advanced/retarded. This can be in a single step as it is in the clio (single stage 16 degree advance on the inlet), or variable. The camshaft is hollow and is used as a galley to feed the front pulley (called a phaser) with oil pressure, this pressure simply acts on vanes inside to rotate it in a desired direction, and returned under mechanical pressure. The cam does not always carry oil pressure, but a vvt switch is used, and is basically a plunder activated by 12 (grounded by the ecu (a lowside switch)) which allows the passing of oil from the lifter galley to an area of the cam bearings with holes that can feed the inside of the cam, which then passes through to the nose of the cam and into the pulley (phaser).

Variable setups (like the new 197) will use the same base components as what is used today, but instead of the vvt plunger being used as a switch, the same plunger has the ability to open and bypass oil to either side of the vanes in the phaser. By using a PWM signal, you can gain full control of the phaser to advance the cam in a near infinately variable curve vs rpm vs manifold pressure vs throttle angle etc.

Honda's Vtec system is a cam 'changing' system where the actual cam profile is changed in its entirety (hence the 3 lobes per cylinder), the actual 'timing' of the primary lobe remains the same at all times. And now with I-Vtec and VVTL-i the benefits of both phasing and changing is being used at the same time to build some monster VE (volumetric efficiency) curves.

Anyway, in the clio the cam sits in its dephased state until the required parameters are met. This is above 1450rpm and 800mb manifold pressure. When it is required though, the cam is phased and the cam timing effectively advances 16 degrees, at 6800rpm it is dephased again and power drops off like a stone. No official reason, but my thoughts are that they do it so you guys shift up once there is a loss of acceleration. The reason for that is because the stock pistons just fall apart with prolongned high rpm use.

The 5k kick is the result of a few natural phenomenons within the engine. At 5000-ish rpm VE suddenly reaches a higher %'age and the resultant torque increase gives you that wahey feeling. VE increases due to the cam comming 'on'. This term has nothing to do with VVT and is quite an old term, whereby the reference is to the rpm region that particualr engine/cam combo requires to process the valve timing events efficiently.

VE refers to volumetric efficiency, or the %'age of the cylinder that you can fill with fresh charge. For a 2ltr, thats 500cc per cylinder. If you can only fill that cylinder with 430cc's at peak efficiency (normally at peak torque point) thats 86% VE. The higher the VE on any engine, the higher the torque output at that specific RPM, and all engine tuning revolves around increasing or rather sustaining a good VE for as long as possible, and upto as high an rpm as possible.

Anyway, back on track. The clio with its advanced cam timing (phased) operates with an overlap value that is larger than when it is dephased (infact it has no overlap when depahsed). This overlap is part of cam design basics, and larger overlap periods are used to help generate higher VE's via scavenging and inertia ramming. At 5000 rpm the natural effects of the port velocity and pulse tuning al reach a level where they start to actively enhance the torque production with the valve timing it is running. Put in a wilder cam and it will push the 'kick' higher up if nothing else changes, but lower rpm efficiency will loose out, and peak power will be pushed up the rpm scale, along with a higher peak bhp figure. To an extent, there will be a point where you can go wilder on the cam and just loose out everywhere as the engine system as a whole does not work with the cam profile you are running.

Not very clear sorry, basis is that the 5k kick is the result of natural phenomenons within the engine, primarily port velocities and pulse tuning harmonics.

None of the above is actually written by me, you have BenR to thank for that
 

Nickson

ClioSport Club Member
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  RB FF 182
All just a bit confusing. Lmao

Going to see Fred in a couple of weeks anyway. I'm sure he'll tell me if it's broken.


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