What next - track Clio.

[mikeh]

So, after my AST Sport line 1 purchase and a set of R888s, I took the Clio to Brands yesterday and was mighty impressed at the improvements to the car.

I have a video at half way through the day with a full tank, a >100kg passenger, a lift to let someone pass and some pretty early braking in places. I timed the best lap on that at 62 seconds - the gopro battery ran out after that, but with the improvements I had made to my driving, with less fuel and no passenger, I reckon I broke the 60 second mark by the end of the day.

But where do I go next?

My observationson the car through the day;

I struggled to stay in the seats, so I think bucket seats and harnesses are needed. I'm not keen on harnesses without at least a half cage.

I finally found the limits of my DS2500s (they never faded, but there are places I felt I could stop faster!), so I think a pad upgrade is needed - suggestions?

The difference in the car without a passenger was incredible - this makes me want to pursue weight loss in the car. Where can large amounts of weight be saved? What is a realistic figure?

The engine bay got very hot - to the point where the PAS fluid was boiling out of the reservoir. What can I look at to aid cooling of the engine bay?

Beyond some bucket seats, I want to look at tuition. I was thinking about contacting someone like Michael Vergers (a friend had a day with him and spoke very highly of him) to book a day of tuition.

Essentially, I'm just looking for some objective opinions.

I want to spend as little as possible on the car to get as much track time in as possible, but I want to do things right to leave the possibility racing open - maybe in a year or two.

 

[mikeh]

Ps. Wasn't sure where to put this - I figured there would be more 'trackers' hovering around the suspension forum. But mods, please move if you think it'd be better elsewhere.

 

[Daniel]

Your PAS fluid boiled?? Christ. I hope you got a warranty with the trackday.

 

[George@RTR_Parts]

Brake pads wise= if you like the DS2500. The DS3000 are next up in the range of the Ferodo Racing pads

Sliding about in seat= search CG Lock, cheap and quite effective ime

 

[...]

Tuition look to ed peed , look up westbourne motorsport , or simon mason ,vergers is good without a doubt.

You will find alot more time in you and by getting track time.

Seat time is the best thing.

Then improve the car as you will understand what you need to improve .

 

[-J-]

Ah, you must have been one if the Clios on track my mate mentioned (he was in a white Subaru with his mate in a Civic and possibly another yellow Subaru)

 

[mikeh]

Thanks guys.

I was in the same garage as the Civic/Yellow Scoob. I hope the mentions were nothing bad There were quite a few Clios there!

 

[-J-]

Robs yellow Scooby is over 450bhp and runs Meth lol, Civic is standard.

No negative mentions, although one of them did say that Clios were holding the civic up.

White Scooby was lapping at 59.06 apparently.

 

[imprezaworks]

I'd try ds3000's , I allways wanted to but never did. Weight reduction is the way forward unless spending lots of pennies making it go quicker.

 

[mikeh]

I certainly wasn't holding the Civic up.

There was an old boy in a Black Clio that refused to let me pass three sessions in a row.

A Blue Clio with Lexus lights was just as guilty of not letting me pass

Its actually quite annoying - the Clios were the worst for not letting me pass, and its not even like I was just a little bit faster and edged closer over several laps - I came up behind them pretty quick.

As for pads DS3000s do seem like the natural progression. What are they like cold, though. I'm a little concerned about Autosolos.

 

[MG cup]

To solve the PAS boiling over I would replace the fluid first as water will have got in there over the years which will encourage it to boil. After that just run it on minimum level mark, that will cure it.

My bucket seats were one of my favourite mods alongside the RARB in my last track car, without a doubt the two things that made the car faster along with a better steering wheel spaced out closer to your body. The standard seating position is the worst thing about these cars so anything to improve that along with the gear stick position is good IMO.

I don't know how serious you are about it all but I would recomend a Carbon Lorraine brake compound over Ferodo ds2500 & 3000

 

[mikeh]

To be honest, with the PAS pump whining, I was planning on removing the pump, looping the pipes on the rack and fitting an electric column.

But the fluid is only a couple of years old, and the first time it boiled at Silverstone it was probably a few months old. I shall remove some fluid next time if I haven't got around to doing the epas rack.

As for CL pads. The last ones I looked at were something like double the price of ds3000s. I'm not that serious

 

[-J-]

I did say I was surprised as the Indy circuit is perfect for Clios, when I did it I was all over most other things.

 

[MG cup]

Most Carbon Lorraine pads are similar price I thought. Ds3000's are expensive anywhere I have seen them.

Yeah if you don't get around to epas then running the fluid down cured the boiling over in mine.

 

[mikeh]

I was surprised at how slow they were. This was only my second time at Brands and the first time was a huge fail - the car setup left it massively oversteery in the wet and after loosing two tyres to the gravel trap, I was going so slow I was almost going around backwards, lol!

This time I got lucky with the setup and it was pretty much bang on from the off, with just a little playing with tyre pressures needed. Plus I was determined to make up for last time!

I think the only things passing me were some Cayman Rs, GT3s, Radicals, 7s, a 197 cup racer (although I passed him first!) And a normal 197/200 that was driven very well!

 

[-D4N-]

Weight wise, the seats, carpets and sound deadening way quite a lot.

if you still want some home comforts in the car then you can leave the door cards and headlining all in.

 

[mikeh]

I'm not too fussed about comforts in the car now - it'll never get used on the road.

Is there a thread somewhere with what everything weighs?

 

[BIGASH]

Brake wise i’d make sure you are getting some cool air to the inside of the discs and then I would be tempted to go with new Brembo HC discs and a set of EBC Blue pads (Tony uses them to great affect on the std callipers)

What spring rates have you got on the AST’s? Easy way to reduce lap time would be a swap to Dunlop DZ03 tyres. If you don’t do anything to improve the roll centres then try not to run the car too low as from my experience its better to compromise CoG rather than have a roll centre underground.

PAS you have a few options, The standard system if used hard on track tends to overheat so would be a good idea to add a power steering fluid cooler. I think EPAS is the best option really but you could also loose PAS altogether but I’m not a fan of running without it.

Instruction is the best idea but from personal experience don’t just try one instructor, all instructors have different methods and styles of tuition it’s not fair to say any of them are wrong but different things work for different people so don’t just expect the first instructor you get to be the perfect fit for you. I’ve probably had best part of 20 different instructors in the car with me over the years from various experience/manufacturer/trackdays and there is only one that I would pay to have sat next to me in a car.

 

[mikeh]

Thanks for the advice, Ash.

Spring rates are f/r 456lb / 513 lb.

I was concerned the car is a little too low, but RC correction is on my to do list - I'm just not so sure it needs to be super high on my list with such a stiff setup.

How much of an improvement are the DZ03s? Are there any downsides over the 888s? I loved the 888s yesterday but they are my only experience of anything particularly sticky on track - beyond some SGs I had for autosolos, anyway.

Interesting note on the EBC Blues - I had never heard of them before. Do you have a coefficient graph for them?

 

[Bobby.]

Who's that James?

 

[BIGASH]

If you are doing auto solos you probably don’t want to go any stiffer than that but for your reference my front spring rates are higher than 600lb but solely circuit use for me.

Personally I would start by taking current ride height measurement and see how low it actually is, if low then try raising the car 10mm (Don’t forget to re-do the geo) and see if it has any impact on lap times. You are more than welcome to borrow my roll centre kit for a trackday if you are unsure I think you will be surprised at the difference

Around Teeside (a 50 second lap) the dunlops were 1.5 seconds a lap faster than the 888’s the dunlops were 205’s and the toyo’s 195’s but that isn’t accounting for 1.5 seconds time difference. (This was 10 laps on each with the track to myself and all laps within a 10th of a second) I also had a years racing experience with the 888’s and it was my first time on the dunlops so it should of been biased towards the 888’s if anything! Yes downsides are they are much worse in the damp/wet than the 888’s, I use 888’s as my wet tyres and really don’t like driving on the dunlops in the wet.

No can’t say I do, I’m testing them in my Alcons at the moment but haven’t had it on track yet so can’t really tell you how it compares to the other 8 pad types I’ve tried. Best bet would be to call EBC UK and speak to Bob Sketchly he will help you with all the details you need.

 

[BIGASH]

Who's that James?

Sorry missed that question, For me a chap called Howard Hunt but as I say its all personal preference

 

[...]

Sorry missed that question, For me a chap called Howard Hunt but as I say its all personal preference

To be fair howards a top instuctor and nice guy too

 

[mikeh]

That's a very kind offer on loaning the rc kit, and if its a genuine one, Id really like to take you up on that!

My dilemma is that I now look at the car and think I want diff, seats, wheel, rc kit. That lot will cost x and my budget for the next 3-6 months is probably x / 2 if I want to get a decent number of track days in.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to do the quick and easy stuff now and save the longer jobs that have potential to disable the car for a while until winter. Ie. Put off the gripper for now.

1.5 seconds over 50 is impressive! I will try and pick up a set of DZ03s - not sure I'll get away with 205s on the rear with ET35 wheels, though. Are they similar to the 888s where the 195 measures closer to 205 anyway?

Is that 888 GGs you're using for wets? Do you find they are OK? I was actually going to chuck some R1Rs on the other wheels for properly wet days.

 

[BIGASH]

To be fair howards a top instuctor and nice guy too

Yes had lots of laughs over the years with him and learnt a lot on the way too

That's a very kind offer on loaning the rc kit, and if its a genuine one, Id really like to take you up on that!

My dilemma is that I now look at the car and think I want diff, seats, wheel, rc kit. That lot will cost x and my budget for the next 3-6 months is probably x / 2 if I want to get a decent number of track days in.

1.5 seconds over 50 is impressive! I will try and pick up a set of DZ03s - not sure I'll get away with 205s on the rear with ET35 wheels, though. Are they similar to the 888s where the 195 measures closer to 205 anyway?

Is that 888 GGs you're using for wets? Do you find they are OK? I was actually going to chuck some R1Rs on the other wheels for properly wet days.

Yes I wouldn’t say it otherwise buddy

Diff is a good shout and so are swapping to dunlops, try that along with a bucket seat (you only need one as you say passengers slow you down ) and decent wheel. Roll centre kit can’t be bought at the moment anyway until another group buy happens so thats not too important for now.

I run ET37 with 5mm spacers on the rear and the 205 dunlops. If you put 195 toyo and 205 dunlop next to each on the floor mounted to rims they are very similar in width so I really doubt you’d have an issue (205 toyo’s probably would though) Its easy enough to flair the rear arches to give more clearance if required too

Yes GG compound and for me I really like them, the only time you have to be careful is standing water or rivers across the track. The only time R1R’s will be quicker is proper monsoon rain but they will be a lot slower in the other wet/damp conditions

 

[mikeh]

Thanks.

Looks like I may need to find some new tyres anyway. Having a closer look at the fronts, I've lipped all the tread on the outsides.

I guess -2.5° isn't enough camber on the front.

Any recommendations on where to pick up dz03s?