@wheels figure

cliotuRS · Dec 4, 2003

hi,

what kind of @wheels figure can i expect from PiperX induction kit and Ktec Cat with zorst ? both claim 8-10bhp each but i rekon 6-7bhp each is probably more realistic. does that mean i could realistically get 12bhp more from both if done properly

and what kind of power have people seen when adding a Dastek to this combo BHP

thanks all

Adams_16v · Dec 4, 2003

doubt ull see that fella to be honest! maybe a few bhp!

they claim to give so much bhp each, but if a zorst claims 10hp, IK claims 10hp, chip claims 10hp. theres not a prayer ur gonna see 30bhp from all 3. maybe 10-12 at a push.

as for unichip, your best choice but expensive, and ideally ur better off with a few more engine mods to get full potential from it!

Rich-D · Dec 4, 2003

Well, a standard 172 should kick out around 144bhp @ wheels...

Theres no way youll see those gains from the mods though and Id be suprised if combined they give more than +10bhp @ wheels.

My Cup has 147bhp @ wheels with a Viper and chris n nics Cup has a de-cat, zorst, R-Sport ECU and induction kit, but only makes 151bhp @ wheels!

A Dastek on the otherhand is expensive but can really improve things as it can be tuned to match the mods and get the most out of your engine!

cliotuRS · Dec 4, 2003

by Viper do you mean induction kit? + when Adam_16v says

"ideally ur better off with a few more engine mods to get full potential from it!"

what does this mean?.. is it cams etc.. + it seems like best engines to mod are turbos with bigger turbos, dumpvalves, boost preassure, ECU remap. How come it is so hard to see any decent gains for a non turbo petrol?

thanks all

Rich-D · Dec 4, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by cliotuRS on 04 December 2003

by Viper do you mean induction kit?

Yes... kind of...

Its a Pipercross Viper and is basically an induction kit sealed inside a carbon airbox and has an air feed to draw cool air from outside the car, unlike normal induction kits which are an open cone filter and draw warm air in from under the bonnet.

Like this >>>

http://www.k-tecracing.com/products/clio1/engine/viper_induction.jpg

cliotuRS · Dec 5, 2003

that looks cool. does the pipe go down to the front grill?

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by cliotuRS on 05 December 2003

that looks cool. does the pipe go down to the front grill?

Pipe can go whereever you think is best...

But heres the best place in my opinion >>>

http://members.lycos.co.uk/pug306rallye/Clio/Viper_air_feed.jpg http://members.lycos.co.uk/pug306rallye/Clio/Viper_air_feed.jpg

Dash · Dec 5, 2003

Hello all Im your freindly Induction Kit dummy.

Does a 172 not have a sealed air filter box which draws cold air in from the from bumper area?

Just put me straight on why a Viper is any better ( is it fancier looking ? )

What exactly is it that makes these after market IKs better.

Could you have a wee fan sucking cold air up the pipe? would that help matters?

Thanks for some more knowledge.

cliotuRS · Dec 5, 2003

sarcasm?.. err i dont get it.

i like the sound of the ITG air filter. check that post out, both piper X and ITG claim 7bhp gain, but ITG seems like it has been proven.

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by dash on 05 December 2003

Hello all Im your freindly Induction Kit dummy.

Does a 172 not have a sealed air filter box which draws cold air in from the from bumper area?

Just put me straight on why a Viper is any better ( is it fancier looking ? )

What exactly is it that makes these after market IKs better.

Could you have a wee fan sucking cold air up the pipe? would that help matters?

Thanks for some more knowledge.

Ill ignore the sarcasm...

Yeah, technically the standard airbox is a sealed unit with a cold air feed from outside the engine bay (differs between mk1 & mk2/Cup), but this is still quite a restrictive setup.

Now you can fit an aftermarket element in the standard box (panel filter) which may give you a couple of bhp at peak, but nothing major.

With a filter like a Viper/BMC/Maxogen you see gains of about 6bhp at peak, but its the mid range power & torque that benefit and there can be quite a difference and this is the range that the engine spends most of its time in so very useful.

Heres a comparison of my Cup with just a Viper fitted (no other mods) vs a totally standard 172 >>>

http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/gallery/full/1069881515__Cup_vs_172_Comparison_01.jpg http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/gallery/full/1069881515__Cup_vs_172_Comparison_01.jpg

So what do you immediately notice from that?!

As you can see, the peak figures aint much different, and its that which people usually talk about as its a headline figure to brag about in the pub, but peak power is not the whole story, its what happens below this that counts.

Were doing some more RR trials in the morning and will have some before & after comparisons for standard vs Viper for you to see, where we will run as standard, then quickly swap to the Viper & re-run, so you will see exactly where the gains are on different cars!

Dash · Dec 5, 2003

Thank you Rich. That cleared a bit of the mystery up for me. God I love this forum everyone is genuinely helpful to thickos like me.

About the fan to suck air in ? Totally silly or not?

cliotuRs. No scarcasm intended. I am such a dunce with all this stuff it may have looked that way.

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

The fan idea "might" be of benefit at low speeds and/or if the cold air feed is not directly fed...

You can get those electric turbo things actually, but theres no proof they work!

Bryan · Dec 5, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by Rich-D on 05 December 2003
So what do you immediately notice from that?!

that the air-con really does sap power from the 172

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by bambam on 05 December 2003

So what do you immediately notice from that?!

Click to expand...

that the air-con really does sap power from the 172

Not if its turned off... the losses are there, but minimal.

Can show you comparisons with a Cup too, without CC and its the same!

Bryan · Dec 5, 2003

the air con still saps power even if its off, due to the way it is run

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by bambam on 05 December 2003

the air con still saps power even if its off, due to the way it is run

I know...

Anyway, well be doing before & after runs with a standard mk2 172 tomorrow, so this will eliminate any differences between engines!

BenR has also done filter tests and got similar results!

cliotuRS · Dec 5, 2003

hehe your not a dunce, forums are like this, people take things the wrong way by mistake. So here is where i sound silly...

that graph is for replacing paper filter with viper PANEL FILTER ELEMENT???? or VIPER INDUCTION KIT WITH PIPE DOWN TO FRONT LOWER GRILL????

sorry i think your saying airbox panel filter not induction, iam just shocked to see such a difference from a foam filter replacment!!

thanks for beaing helpful

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

cliotuRS -

The gains shown above are for a totally standard car, with the original airbox & paper filter, compared to a Pipercross Viper induction kit, like the one in the pic above!

You cant get a Viper panel filter. The Viper is a model of filter made by Pipercross, only available as the sealed carbon airbox!

Gains from a panel filter are much less...

cliotuRS · Dec 5, 2003

ohh. sorry

yeah induction kit seems more sensible to get that kind of increase. if you study the graph in a bit of detail you can see at some point in the Mid there are gains of 11lb/ft of torque! nice

so which is the one ITG or PIPERX VIPER ?? big question

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by cliotuRS on 05 December 2003

so which is the one ITG or PIPERX VIPER ?? big question

Well, the gains will all be pretty similar, so Id go for whichever is the best price...

The Viper is about £200, the Maxogen will be about £200, but the BMC is cheaper still, think you can get them for about £170?!

Bryan · Dec 5, 2003

no question - ITG

Tom · Dec 5, 2003

itg all the feckerdy way

cliotuRS · Dec 5, 2003

does ITG stand the risk of damaging your car? so if the VIper seems to push 11lb/ft of torque does that mean ITG will push more? what like any graphs? expected gain = what?

thanks

((which one makes the nicest noise hehe))

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by cliotuRS on 05 December 2003

does ITG stand the risk of damaging your car?

No...

Id probably go for the ITG if I didnt already have a Viper!

cliotuRS · Dec 5, 2003

cool, but the price seems high £300+ has been suggested on ITG filter Post. Cant afford ((or want to)) that, but a BMC is £170 so il probably go for that. Has anyone got a BMC induction kit + pictures? what does it sound like. Personally i like the look of the Viper Piper hehe that rhymed

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

Quote: Originally posted by cliotuRS on 05 December 2003

cool, but the price seems high £300+ has been suggested on ITG filter Post. Cant afford ((or want to)) that, but a BMC is £170 so il probably go for that. Has anyone got a BMC induction kit + pictures? what does it sound like. Personally i like the look of the Viper Piper hehe that rhymed

Well I was going off the £200 price that Bambam said, so now I know how much they really are then the BMC looks a more promising option...

Do a search on here for BMC as Ive seen pics of them on 172s

cliotuRS · Dec 5, 2003

thanks Rich-D

Rich-D · Dec 5, 2003

No probs mate...

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